Can we talk about capital punishment?

[lonesomexloveus]

side note: YO FLOOD, I GOT THE SHIRT ON FROM YOUR SIG

but yes. death penalty = bad.

[j4m35]

the south has executed 1042 people since 1976. texas and virginia alone have executed 584. ugh.

[kriss]

That doubling in number could lend itself to other points of debate about the attitude the South holds in general about justice and the enforcement of law as well. I could be way off here, but I honestly wonder sometimes if those old world ways of thinking haven't fully receded (I say that as having been born in the South and having lived there until I got out of high school) and that sort of 'shoot 'em up Tex' attitude dates back to the Civil War and a very prevalent need for that particular group of states to 'prove' themselves to the rest of the country as tougher and more resilient (it certainly would go a long way towards explaining the Bush administration).

[j4m35]

i think that has to do with how the north treated the south after the civil war. complete economic devastation and population loss, along with losing all the freedmen and women who were slaves to the cities (who were treated there like slaves, if i may add), locked the south into a cycle of economic depression that i don't think it pulled out of until the 1960s.

i often compare the north's treatment of post-bellum south to the allied treatment of the weimar republic in germany post-WWI. no jobs, unskilled laborers, defeated moral, hyperinflation.

[mcm1610]

In my younger years I was all for it. Then I was against it and didn't know why.

Then I taught about it in Participation in Government last week and I'm pretty against it for a lot of logical reasons, such as the appeals costs making death row crazy expensive, even compared to life in prison. All the vengeance, the justice... that just doesn't do anything for me. It's impossible to undo the death penalty, and there's no data that it's actually a deterrent in any way. The states that have the death penalty have higher rates of violent crime. It just hasn't solved anything, so why play god?

[harryq]

i think in manson's case, that was the fault of the court for not giving him life without parole in the first place.

in my opinion, life without parole is potentially a harsher sentence than death, and given the facts surrounding government executions, it's also a more viable punishment from both economical and ethical standpoints.

according to a quote on manson's wiki page that I have no way of verifying, manson doesn't seem to care that he's in prison, so I'm not seeing what life in prison (essentially without parole because who in their right mind would let charles manson out of prison? seriously...) is really doing to him. and one could argue he's a bigger risk alive in prison--again, according to his wikipedia page, he's been caught with a cellphone /in prison/ (and since it's his influence / ability to manipulate people that's the most dangerous, that sounds pretty bad).

I realize manson is a bit of an extreme example, but the death penalty is supposed to be an extreme punishment (e.g., troy davis allegedly killing a cop 20 years ago or whatever doesn't exactly sound "extreme" as far as murder goes, so I don't see why you'd give the death penalty for that). is there any doubt that manson did the things he is accused of doing? is there any benefit to having tax-payers paying his room and board for the last 30-40 years? dude seems pretty crazy, and I don't think being locked up in prison is gonna fix that

[adamlikesmusic]

I'm against it for the most part, but when a crime is particularly heinous, and there's overwhelming evidence pointing to the defendant's guilt, then I don't take issue with it. When someone is sentenced to death, there should be absolutely no doubt that the guilty party is actually guilty. It should be rare, and should be swift.

I mean it's an extreme example, but if a man is clearly caught on tape raping and murdering an entire elementary school class, I'm all for them offing the guy as soon as he exits the courtroom.

[lonesomexloveus]

the problem with the 'i don't care if they just kill a serial murderer/rapist etc' stance is that that's not how it works here in the US. the system is part of the death penalty, and here it means years and years of appeals, etc and millions of dollars of extra cost passed on to the taxpayer.

it's almost better in those cases to just hope the prison guards look the other way and these guys get a shiv in the gut. but really, i don't think the government should have the power to execute people as they see fit (after a trial, of course...well, in most cases). government sanctioned violence should not be the answer to violence.

[harryq]

it's almost better in those cases to just hope the prison guards look the other way and these guys get a shiv in the gut. but really, i don't think the government should have the power to execute people as they see fit (after a trial, of course...well, in most cases). government sanctioned violence should not be the answer to violence.

so you (almost?) support vigilante justice? wouldn't you rather have elected officials "shank" convicted criminals in a humane way than an individual who may simply have a vendetta?

[kriss]

In the case of last night's execution it would appear that the elected officials *were* the individuals with the vendetta.

It's been made obvious time and again that humane execution and proof of guilt aren't always part and parcel.

[lonesomexloveus]

it's almost better in those cases to just hope the prison guards look the other way and these guys get a shiv in the gut. but really, i don't think the government should have the power to execute people as they see fit (after a trial, of course...well, in most cases). government sanctioned violence should not be the answer to violence.

so you (almost?) support vigilante justice? wouldn't you rather have elected officials "shank" convicted criminals in a humane way than an individual who may simply have a vendetta?

to have a vendetta, someone would have to have a personal involvement with the other person, so someone getting killed in prison would most likely not be the result of that.

and no, i don't support vigilante justice, but i also don't support government sanctioned murder. there may be exceptions, but they are very few and far between.

[Guest]

i just dont understand what constitutes as an execution-worthy crime.

but im pretty sure id be in full favor if someone decided to drop the hammer on lindsay lohan.

[harryq]

so you (almost?) support vigilante justice? wouldn't you rather have elected officials "shank" convicted criminals in a humane way than an individual who may simply have a vendetta?

to have a vendetta, someone would have to have a personal involvement with the other person, so someone getting killed in prison would most likely not be the result of that.

and no, i don't support vigilante justice, but i also don't support government sanctioned murder. there may be exceptions, but they are very few and far between.

I agree, there are extreme cases which warrant extreme consequences, and there are some extremely dangerous people who could have a harmful influence on society whether they are in prison or not. I don't know where/how you draw the line, but I'm a statistician, not a judge, so unless we come up with some sort of hypothesis test with a p-value, it's not my decision anyway. somewhere between starting a cult and brainwashing your followers to commit premeditated mass murder and a seemingly random murder, erroring on the side of caution

and as far as "caution" is concerned, I think the world is a little safer with someone like bin laden dead (let's pretend he was american and his compound was in a remote area of montana or something... another extreme example, yes, but that's the whole point) rather than living in a prison where he could influence other inmates

[steventangent]

I've seen this said several times, "well, if there's OVERWHELMING evidence and NO DOUBT AT ALL..."

There's no "guilty" and "superguilty." Our system is such that if one is convicted by a jury of their peers in the court of law, barring technical things like appeals or procedural acquittals, they are "guilty." I'm not getting into the finer points of race and socioeconomic class and so on, because my point is this - when those jurors decide you're guilty, it's because the prosecution "proved to them beyond a reasonable doubt" that the burden of their evidence proves the person's guilt.

So it seems bizarre that people would say, "in an extreme case, like Ed Gein's..."

Say your great aunt and uncle, Hortense and Favio, win a trip for 2 to Belarus in a can of Pringles, and need you to watch after their organic turnip farm in East Upper Westchestershire Heights. You've got nothing going on after being laid off from your job injection molding plastic statues of C Everett Koop, so you decide to go hang out, eat all their tilapia, and watch Star Wars on bluray.

That Friday night, you go out to Applebees because you decide it's time to go trolling for pussy. You just happen to take home a cop's daughter, who, immediately before you were talking to her, was slipped a roofie by a frat boy in a Muse t-shirt. She gets halfway home and passes out, so you decide to let her crash on the couch while you go outside and practice throwing machetes and firing a pearl handled pistol named Petunia wildly into the night.

She never came home, so daddy came looking for her by her cell phone. He finds her drugged, and you drunk and acting a goddamned fool. You're charged with attempted rape. But her disappearance from the Everglades Crossing Applebees sounds suspiciously like several other crimes in the area.

While searching the property, way in the back 40, they find a barn. A barn you've never even seen before. And in that barn is a circus trampoline made of human skin, a cigar box full of nipples, a tub of vulvas, and complete skeleton with a printout of Rosie O'donnel's face and a fleshlight jammed between it's thighs.

It's not looking good for you, and all you wanted was a $5 margarita, some mozzarella sticks, and a blowjob from a girl whose standards are low enough that she finds your ignorant ass charming.

[steventangent]

...I also want to point out that Charles Manson never killed anybody, and Ed Gein was convicted of one murder, though he killed two people. Pssh. TWO! Two is hardly any people at all.

And this "death penalty for killing a cop" shit is fucking stupid. Why should shooting a cop carry any worse punishment than pummeling a garbageman or flogging a bishop? Because they are the most prevalent tool of government oppression? Fuck 'em. That's what I always say.

As for capital punishment, if any of you can think of a better way to sate our Abrahamic religious bloodlust while still maintaining the illusion that we're "civilized," I'd just loooooove to fuckin' hear it.

[hankmurphy]

Since 1900, in this country, there have been on the average more than four cases per year in which an entirely innocent person was convicted of murder.

http://users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html

edit: the report is 20 years old, but still very relevant.

[lonesomexloveus]

I've seen this said several times, "well, if there's OVERWHELMING evidence and NO DOUBT AT ALL..."

....

It's not looking good for you, and all you wanted was a $5 margarita, some mozzarella sticks, and a blowjob from a girl whose standards are low enough that she finds your ignorant ass charming.

i laughed so hard at this. so true, though.

[Guest]

I've seen this said several times, "well, if there's OVERWHELMING evidence and NO DOUBT AT ALL..."

There's no "guilty" and "superguilty." Our system is such that if one is convicted by a jury of their peers in the court of law, barring technical things like appeals or procedural acquittals, they are "guilty." I'm not getting into the finer points of race and socioeconomic class and so on, because my point is this - when those jurors decide you're guilty, it's because the prosecution "proved to them beyond a reasonable doubt" that the burden of their evidence proves the person's guilt.

So it seems bizarre that people would say, "in an extreme case, like Ed Gein's..."

Say your great aunt and uncle, Hortense and Favio, win a trip for 2 to Belarus in a can of Pringles, and need you to watch after their organic turnip farm in East Upper Westchestershire Heights. You've got nothing going on after being laid off from your job injection molding plastic statues of C Everett Koop, so you decide to go hang out, eat all their tilapia, and watch Star Wars on bluray.

That Friday night, you go out to Applebees because you decide it's time to go trolling for pussy. You just happen to take home a cop's daughter, who, immediately before you were talking to her, was slipped a roofie by a frat boy in a Muse t-shirt. She gets halfway home and passes out, so you decide to let her crash on the couch while you go outside and practice throwing machetes and firing a pearl handled pistol named Petunia wildly into the night.

She never came home, so daddy came looking for her by her cell phone. He finds her drugged, and you drunk and acting a goddamned fool. You're charged with attempted rape. But her disappearance from the Everglades Crossing Applebees sounds suspiciously like several other crimes in the area.

While searching the property, way in the back 40, they find a barn. A barn you've never even seen before. And in that barn is a circus trampoline made of human skin, a cigar box full of nipples, a tub of vulvas, and complete skeleton with a printout of Rosie O'donnel's face and a fleshlight jammed between it's thighs.

It's not looking good for you, and all you wanted was a $5 margarita, some mozzarella sticks, and a blowjob from a girl whose standards are low enough that she finds your ignorant ass charming.

well that covered my laughing quota for the day

[jerseydave77]

Well said Steve

[GradedOnACurve]

I've seen this said several times, "well, if there's OVERWHELMING evidence and NO DOUBT AT ALL..."

There's no "guilty" and "superguilty." Our system is such that if one is convicted by a jury of their peers in the court of law, barring technical things like appeals or procedural acquittals, they are "guilty." I'm not getting into the finer points of race and socioeconomic class and so on, because my point is this - when those jurors decide you're guilty, it's because the prosecution "proved to them beyond a reasonable doubt" that the burden of their evidence proves the person's guilt.

So it seems bizarre that people would say, "in an extreme case, like Ed Gein's..."

Say your great aunt and uncle, Hortense and Favio, win a trip for 2 to Belarus in a can of Pringles, and need you to watch after their organic turnip farm in East Upper Westchestershire Heights. You've got nothing going on after being laid off from your job injection molding plastic statues of C Everett Koop, so you decide to go hang out, eat all their tilapia, and watch Star Wars on bluray.

That Friday night, you go out to Applebees because you decide it's time to go trolling for pussy. You just happen to take home a cop's daughter, who, immediately before you were talking to her, was slipped a roofie by a frat boy in a Muse t-shirt. She gets halfway home and passes out, so you decide to let her crash on the couch while you go outside and practice throwing machetes and firing a pearl handled pistol named Petunia wildly into the night.

She never came home, so daddy came looking for her by her cell phone. He finds her drugged, and you drunk and acting a goddamned fool. You're charged with attempted rape. But her disappearance from the Everglades Crossing Applebees sounds suspiciously like several other crimes in the area.

While searching the property, way in the back 40, they find a barn. A barn you've never even seen before. And in that barn is a circus trampoline made of human skin, a cigar box full of nipples, a tub of vulvas, and complete skeleton with a printout of Rosie O'donnel's face and a fleshlight jammed between it's thighs.

It's not looking good for you, and all you wanted was a $5 margarita, some mozzarella sticks, and a blowjob from a girl whose standards are low enough that she finds your ignorant ass charming...

...I also want to point out that Charles Manson never killed anybody, and Ed Gein was convicted of one murder, though he killed two people. Pssh. TWO! Two is hardly any people at all.

And this "death penalty for killing a cop" shit is fucking stupid. Why should shooting a cop carry any worse punishment than pummeling a garbageman or flogging a bishop? Because they are the most prevalent tool of government oppression? Fuck 'em. That's what I always say.

As for capital punishment, if any of you can think of a better way to sate our Abrahamic religious bloodlust while still maintaining the illusion that we're "civilized," I'd just loooooove to fuckin' hear it.

Fixed. and +1 for at work lulz

[xadamhudsonx]

I've seen this said several times, "well, if there's OVERWHELMING evidence and NO DOUBT AT ALL..."

There's no "guilty" and "superguilty." Our system is such that if one is convicted by a jury of their peers in the court of law, barring technical things like appeals or procedural acquittals, they are "guilty." I'm not getting into the finer points of race and socioeconomic class and so on, because my point is this - when those jurors decide you're guilty, it's because the prosecution "proved to them beyond a reasonable doubt" that the burden of their evidence proves the person's guilt.

So it seems bizarre that people would say, "in an extreme case, like Ed Gein's..."

Say your great aunt and uncle, Hortense and Favio, win a trip for 2 to Belarus in a can of Pringles, and need you to watch after their organic turnip farm in East Upper Westchestershire Heights. You've got nothing going on after being laid off from your job injection molding plastic statues of C Everett Koop, so you decide to go hang out, eat all their tilapia, and watch Star Wars on bluray.

That Friday night, you go out to Applebees because you decide it's time to go trolling for pussy. You just happen to take home a cop's daughter, who, immediately before you were talking to her, was slipped a roofie by a frat boy in a Muse t-shirt. She gets halfway home and passes out, so you decide to let her crash on the couch while you go outside and practice throwing machetes and firing a pearl handled pistol named Petunia wildly into the night.

She never came home, so daddy came looking for her by her cell phone. He finds her drugged, and you drunk and acting a goddamned fool. You're charged with attempted rape. But her disappearance from the Everglades Crossing Applebees sounds suspiciously like several other crimes in the area.

While searching the property, way in the back 40, they find a barn. A barn you've never even seen before. And in that barn is a circus trampoline made of human skin, a cigar box full of nipples, a tub of vulvas, and complete skeleton with a printout of Rosie O'donnel's face and a fleshlight jammed between it's thighs.

It's not looking good for you, and all you wanted was a $5 margarita, some mozzarella sticks, and a blowjob from a girl whose standards are low enough that she finds your ignorant ass charming.

Best post ever.

[al]

Dude look at some facts. 56% of people executed since 1976 were white. Also, no need to be PC with that "(wo)man" thing. Only 12 women have been executed since 1976.

80% of the USA is white (according to Wikipedia, the footnote from the US Census Bureau) as opposed to 13% black and 15% Latino. Black minors being charged as adults being a more frequent occurance, I'd say it's worth bringing up. Maybe these aren't the facts you wish me to look at?

Also, the (wo)man thing - I don't see the problem. How about (trans)wo(man) - is that better?

[lonesomexloveus]

Best post ever.

i enjoyed it so much i sent it to one of the attorneys i work with, who subsequently laughed his ass off, thanked me profusely for sharing it with him, and forwarded it to all his friends.

[steventangent]

Glad I fuckin' amuse y'all, but I actually knew a guy that happened to.

[danthemjfan23]

80% of the USA is white (according to Wikipedia, the footnote from the US Census Bureau) as opposed to 13% black and 15% Latino.

80 + 13 + 15 = 108%

maybe wikipedia isn't the best source?