NHL Discussion

[mcm1610]

And regarding the potential locations in Canada bit -- there really aren't that many spots at all that would be suitable.

St. Paul is the US city with the smallest population that has an NHL Franchise -- The Wild. Their population is about 277,000 or so. This doesn't include Minneapolis, either -- a short drive away. The second smallest is Newark, but given proximity to NYC, it shouldn't count. Third smallest is Buffalo. With nothing really of substance around it in NY State, it is a self contained franchise that imports some of its fans from Southern Ontario.

That said, if you use the 277k as a floor for population of a metro area for franchise viability, that would limit the number of Canadian cities to 18. And I was generous and made the Canadian floor at 200,000 since it is more of a national sport and support shouldn't be that large of a concern. Really, it's only 16. As follows:

Toronto/Mississauga (has a team)

Montreal (has a team)

Vancouver (has a team)

Ottawa (has a team)

Calgary (has a team)

Edmonton (has a team)

Quebec City (HAD a team)

Winnipeg (HAD a team)

Hamilton (Southern Ontario)

London (Southern Ontario)

Kitchener/Waterloo (Southern Ontario)

St. Catharines/Niagra (Southern Ontario)

Halifax (Nova Scotia -- coastal city)

Oshawa/Whitby (Southern Ontario -- 30 mins from Toronto)

Victoria (British Columbia -- ferry ride from Vancouver)

Windsor (Southern Ontario)

Saskatoon (Saskatchewan)

Regina (Saskatchewan)

So if you eliminate the cities that already had franchises that failed and all of those in Southern Ontario due to proximity to Buffalo and Detroit, that leaves a grand total of FOUR possible locations -- two of which have populations lower than that of St. Paul (and both of those are desolate locations, I might add). Halifax isn't a hockey city, and Victoria is a ferry ride away from Vancouver.

So, what, no more hockey for Canada? Because Buffalo can't support it's own team?

Hardly seams fair.

Those are fair points, but dropping a team into an area that is already divided isn't the same as dropping it into an untapped area. Ask NJ how they fared stealing fans away from the Islanders, Rangers, and Flyers, and that's in a MASSIVE metropolitan area.

I don't know the stats for how many Canadians drive across the border, I'm not even sure they exist, but it's a very, very substantial number of even season ticket holders.

[sgoodcore]

Here's a neat chart that shows average ticket prices around the league since the mid 90's.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/index.php/site/comments/nhl_average_ticket_prices_since_1994_95/

lol @ leafs fans. they are the dumbest shit on the planet. they pay the most to see one of the worst teams around. such stupid cattle.

it's a shame for the rest of us who live in the GTA and want to see an NHL game though.

For the most part, before the season lost to a lock-out and the rule changes the Leafs were consistently making the playoffs and actually getting in to them a few rounds. I remember them consistently beating up the Senators.

They weren't a bad team then, they were poorly constructed and the collapse their induring was predicted but they were winning games, were exciting because the scored enough and were rough, and were playing in the most hockey mad place in the world.

[steventangent]

Sticks, pucks, goals, skates, ice

Now game seven at the Joe

Detroit is dirty

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

St. Paul is the US city with the smallest population that has an NHL Franchise -- The Wild. Their population is about 277,000 or so. This doesn't include Minneapolis, either -- a short drive away. The second smallest is Newark, but given proximity to NYC, it shouldn't count. Third smallest is Buffalo.

If you're talking "metro area" (as you referred to in the paragraph following this one), the population of the area around St. Paul is closer to 3-4 million. It's worth noting two things when it comes to the area the Wild play in:

1. St. Paul and Minneapolis are less than "a short drive away." (Thus its collective name of being the Twin Cities - side note: this is why the MLB team is named the Minnesota Twins) I know that you're referring to the city the team is directly playing in, but it seems different to me in this case.

2. The state of Minnesota is referred to as "The State of Hockey." It is to hockey as Texas is to football. While the population is (usually much) smaller than most areas that have a professional hockey team, the fan base is arguably one of the most loyal, knowledgable, and fanatic. There's a reason they've sold out every home game, despite never really doing anything other than being swept by the Ducks in the Conference Finals six years ago.

I know you probably know these things, I just thought it was worth mentioning to anyone reading... plus I'm just killing time at 5 in the morning. Otherwise, I enjoyed reading your post (as usual). You really know your stuff.

I was going to say the same thing about the twin cities, its not like Dallas and Fort Worth in Texas where there is a good 30 miles between the two, these two cities are right on top of each other, separated by a river, pretty much, and you might as well just consider it one city market for pro sports. Why the Northstars left Minnesota to go to Dallas still blows my mind, I mean, yeah, they were having issues with getting a new stadium... but they were a team that only missed the playoffs 9 times in 26 seasons, it was only going to be time until a deal was made...

There are high schools that kids go to TOO play hockey in Minnesota, Shattuck Saint Mary in Faribault is one that i know of. Through work I talked to someone there setting up a school program for an artist I work for and found out that he was Sidney Crosby's tennis coach for 2 weeks, before he decided that he just didn't have the time to dedicate to playing tennis at the school.

im with jeff though, I do like reading what you have to say because you really know your stuff, but I agree with Jeff on the twin cities stuff and the state of Minnesota as a whole.

[kirbypuckett]

When the new arena is built in Pittsburgh there will be tickets available for around $20. I think it's going to be the same deal as it is in Columbus -- the top bowl will be roughly $20. I think that's a great deal. When I go to Pens games I usually spend $50-$60 for the higher seats, but they offer a pretty solid view.

[kirbypuckett]

honestly dude. leafs fans bitch and bitch and bitch about having a shit team. yet they still empty their pockets to sell out every home game. if you were management why would you change shit. you're putting in minimum effort to get a huge pay cheque. if leafs fans were smart they'd stop buying the tickets to send a message that the management needs to change what they're doing. but they don't. they just get raped up the ass for tickets then bitch that their team is crap.

I don't bitch.

You're the only one doing that.

If anything, Leafs fans are optimistic to a fault.

I respect Leafs fans because they're very passionate about the sport and their team. The post by crime just kind of solidifies how much of a joke he is.

Leafs fans travel quite well too. There's always a ton of them in Pittsburgh when they play the Pens.

[sgoodcore]

Crawford is now the coach of the Stars. Not sure he fits their team any better than Sean Avery did.

[drabley]

Thanks for the appreciation.

I realize the Twin City thing, and I wasn't really using that as a model. I just used the base population since it was the lowest. Buffalo and the surrounding suburbs is around 320k or so, but you could make the same arguement of a large metro area for Buffalo if you include Southern Ontario.

But in looking at Southern Ontario as one large Metro Area, the population of this region is around 12.2 million. In fact, more than a third of all Canadians live in Southern Ontario -- 1 in every 2.7. This region has Toronto, the hockey mecca of North America, and likely the world, as its Capitol. It is the only hockey franchise in the region that is within the confines of the national border. Buffalo and Detroit are in the vicinity, but international travel is required. It seems laughable, given the relationship between Canada and the United States, but crossing a border or going through customs after you've enjoyed a few Labatts is not something I like to do regularly. Especially in the "Bush and Beyond" era.

Fact is, this is a vastly underserved market. Southern Ontario as a region and a market is comparable only to the NYC/NJ/PHI. This market has four franchises within a 90 minute commute radius of NYC. Southern Ontario has just one.

Hamilton seems to be the preferred location. Copps colliseum is old and needs refurbished and ultimately replaced, but it will do for the time being. The capacity shouldn't be an issue. Hamilton is within 90 minute commute radius of all of Southern Ontario with the exception of the Windsor area, which is closer to 120 - 140 minutes.

That said, I grew up watching the Sabres play the Leafs. It would be a shame if the franchise were put in peril by a new franchise, as Buffalo is also within that 90 minute commute radius. But really, will it be that bad? That will only be 3 franchises in region comparable in size and population to that of NYC/NJ/PHI as opposed to their very successful four. Well, maybe not the Islanders, but that's mainly becuase of their own futility in the past decade or so. Except that one season with the Peca/Tucker incident. And if you count nearby Hartford, this region used to have 5 franchises.

And Southern Ontario only has and has ever had one?

I firmly believe that any arguements to the contrary about Hamilton are largely mythical in nature and/or egotistical whinings by the league in general and Bettman specifically.

Give Balsillie what he wants. Take his money. But more importantly, give Canadian hockey fans what they want.

[suburbanargyle]

I realize more people will come to an NHL game than an AHL game, but the Hamilton Bulldogs only average 4,600 a game at Copps Coliseum. Winnipeg (Manitoba Moose) averages 7,800 a game.

Other notables - Hershey drew almost 9,000 a game. Oklahoma City drew 6,500 a game in the Central League.

[coldsnap]

And regarding the potential locations in Canada bit -- there really aren't that many spots at all that would be suitable.

St. Paul is the US city with the smallest population that has an NHL Franchise -- The Wild. Their population is about 277,000 or so. This doesn't include Minneapolis, either -- a short drive away. The second smallest is Newark, but given proximity to NYC, it shouldn't count. Third smallest is Buffalo. With nothing really of substance around it in NY State, it is a self contained franchise that imports some of its fans from Southern Ontario.

That said, if you use the 277k as a floor for population of a metro area for franchise viability, that would limit the number of Canadian cities to 18. And I was generous and made the Canadian floor at 200,000 since it is more of a national sport and support shouldn't be that large of a concern. Really, it's only 16. As follows:

Toronto/Mississauga (has a team)

Montreal (has a team)

Vancouver (has a team)

Ottawa (has a team)

Calgary (has a team)

Edmonton (has a team)

Quebec City (HAD a team)

Winnipeg (HAD a team)

Hamilton (Southern Ontario)

London (Southern Ontario)

Kitchener/Waterloo (Southern Ontario)

St. Catharines/Niagra (Southern Ontario)

Halifax (Nova Scotia -- coastal city)

Oshawa/Whitby (Southern Ontario -- 30 mins from Toronto)

Victoria (British Columbia -- ferry ride from Vancouver)

Windsor (Southern Ontario)

Saskatoon (Saskatchewan)

Regina (Saskatchewan)

So if you eliminate the cities that already had franchises that failed and all of those in Southern Ontario due to proximity to Buffalo and Detroit, that leaves a grand total of FOUR possible locations -- two of which have populations lower than that of St. Paul (and both of those are desolate locations, I might add). Halifax isn't a hockey city, and Victoria is a ferry ride away from Vancouver.

So, what, no more hockey for Canada? Because Buffalo can't support it's own team?

Hardly seams fair.

There is a good chance that we will have an NHL team move here before 2-3 years.

[sgoodcore]

How far is Quebec City from Montreal? Less than 90 miles? (145 km)

[coldsnap]

about 250 km...

[sgoodcore]

Okay, interesting. Well I ask because if franchises are granted within a 90 mile radius, or 145 km, the new team has the pay the other team a fee. It happened in Southern California with the Kings and the Ducks. Bruce McNall allowed the Ducks to exist for a fee.

[coldsnap]

I didn't know that. So I guess it's the same thing with the Islanders and Rangers.

With the few expansion teams in the u.s that are going to move in the next couple of years, chances to have one of those team here are excellents.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I don't really think a team moving to Hamilton will hurt the Sabres, because the Sabres will still have their fan base in ALL of western NY. I know people from syracuse and rochester who make the drive to buffalo for games, season tickets for a couple of them (from rochetser), and sure, they might lose some fans in southern ontario if/when a team moves in to Hamilton, but I don't think that many really. Like you said, its an incredibly populated area, to the likes of northern Jersey/NYC, and they have 3 franchises in the NHL on top of every other sport having multiples... I think Buffalo will be just fine with another hockey team in the area. If anything, it could help sell more tickets to rival games or whatever might happen.

montreal to quebec is quiet a hike, they're not as close as you might think... same as Toronto to Montreal, much farther than I ever really thought... its like the distance of Buffalo to Albany.

[drabley]

While I miss the days of Les Nordiques, I believe that Hamilton is the wisest choice for the time being.

I say this because Quebec City, and Winnipeg, for that matter, are so isolated geographically. Winnipeg is close to nothing. Quebec City, with the exception of Montreal, is close to nothing of substance except trees, hydro-electric dams, and francophone separatists drinking warm Labatt 50. If the local fan base becomes disenfranchised after a long spell of losing seasons, there are no other populations nearby to draw more loyal fans from. I could be wrong, but I think this was part of the reason both teams left in the first place.

Hamilton, which is 90 minutes from everywhere in Southern Ontario and has over 12 million people regionally to draw from, won't have this problem.

As for AHL/OHL/WHL/QMJHL attendance stats, it's kind of misleading. The Owen Sound Attack of the OHL draw around 2,200 fans to a game. The population of Owen Sound is only 22,000. That's 10% of the entire city at that hockey game. What's the more impressive figure?

If Glendale could do that night after night, we may not be having this conversation at all.

[andrew13]

WBS holds like 7800 i think and it's been sold out for 3-4 years now.

[kirbypuckett]

This pic of Guerin cracked me up:

That restaurant is on 51 near Brentwood, haha.

[sgoodcore]

Dude, you can't tell from watching him play but Guerin is built like a brick shithouse.

[mcm1610]

It seems laughable, given the relationship between Canada and the United States, but crossing a border or going through customs after you've enjoyed a few Labatts is not something I like to do regularly. Especially in the "Bush and Beyond" era.

I'm going to finish reading the post and respond, but you obviously don't live or haven't lived here. From the day I turned 19, we crossed the border REGULARLY beyond blackout-drunk with drivers that weren't exactly sober, often with 6 or 7 people in one sedan. They don't give a fuck. My friends still do this with the tighter restrictions. As long as you aren't a felon or suspected terrorist and everyone's passports or IDs are valid, they're more than willing to let you cross the border both ways. Trust me, tons of fans come from southern Ontario for every game, especially if Toronto is the visiting team.

[drabley]

It seems laughable, given the relationship between Canada and the United States, but crossing a border or going through customs after you've enjoyed a few Labatts is not something I like to do regularly. Especially in the "Bush and Beyond" era.

I'm going to finish reading the post and respond, but you obviously don't live or haven't lived here. From the day I turned 19, we crossed the border REGULARLY beyond blackout-drunk with drivers that weren't exactly sober, often with 6 or 7 people in one sedan. They don't give a fuck. My friends still do this with the tighter restrictions. As long as you aren't a felon or suspected terrorist and everyone's passports or IDs are valid, they're more than willing to let you cross the border both ways. Trust me, tons of fans come from southern Ontario for every game, especially if Toronto is the visiting team.

Maybe it's just the border people I get, but I get treated like a terrorist every time. Sober or not.

I've gotten 2 traffic tickets in my life, so I doubt I'm on a watch list.

Maybe it's because I have a Green Card?

[sgoodcore]

I think they changed border regulations to mandate carrying a passport. That should make things more difficult if I'm thinking right.

[mcm1610]

They did, but if you have a passport, it's still easy as balls to go across. They even have enhanced licenses or some shit that's even easier now.

I think the green card is part of the problem. My Russian friend got questioned hard all the time until he became a legit citizen.

[mcm1610]

And when I say easier than ever, I mean, if you have one. Apparently it's a big long application process to get one.

[jaime]

TONIGHT.