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A mature discussion about sound quality and vinyl


moonbeams
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There is a lot of talk of color being related to sound quality and so on, but I don't buy it.

I strongly believe, that the depth and and warmth of a record's sound is directly related to the wear and tear of the stampers.

Today I received the colored NOFX Frisbee in the mail. Upon opening it, the first thing I noticed was that matrix was identical to the first pressing. I listened to parts of both pressings a few times over and hands down, the first pressing is deeper, fuller and warmer. It makes the new pressing unlistenable.

The sad thing about this, if I had bought only the colored pressing first, I would have never have known how good this sounds. I know some people may post "my colored pressing sounds great" "I can't tell the difference." Please do.

A month ago I sold my colored variants. There were 2 records that I had 5 copies of and I listened to both extensively to try to determine which pressing to keep. They were Invasion USA by Riverdales and the Methadones s/t.

My favorite Invasion USA color was blue and favorite Methadones color was green so I wanted to keep these. But upon listening tests, the green methadones lacked a punch whereas the green USA sounded dull. The green USA sounded great, but not as good as a clear. Anyway, it doesn't matter which color the record is. I highly suspect that the sound is related to the order of churning out of the press.

Going through my collection, I notice that older pressings just sound richer.

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I don't think discussing sound quality on records to be a dumb thread, but I think correlating it with stampers ties in really closely with a thread that's already been going for awhile on the same subject (and the myth of it supposedly).

That said, while I personally believe the sound discerned from one copy of a record pressed a few hundred copies later than another copy of that second record won't yield any sonic difference to the naked ear (perhaps if you had some crazy high end equipment to test it on), I'd generally say that the sound of some records (not many now that come from digital masters) are warmer than when hearing those same recordings in other mediums.

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I don't think discussing sound quality on records to be a dumb thread, but I think correlating it with stampers ties in really closely with a thread that's already been going for awhile on the same subject (and the myth of it supposedly).

That said, while I personally believe the sound discerned from one copy of a record pressed a few hundred copies later than another copy of that second record won't yield any sonic difference to the naked ear (perhaps if you had some crazy high end equipment to test it on), I'd generally say that the sound of some records (not many now that come from digital masters) are warmer than when hearing those same recordings in other mediums.

There was a stark difference in the Frisbees. I really like the brown and wanted to keep it, but I couldn't betray the "audiophile" inside. Imagine a ph like scale from -10 to +10. I would put the first pressing at zero for a full, balanced sound. The second is at +3.5. It lacked the depth. It's very difficult for me to describe an audio experience in words.

What I'm trying to say, is that I could own 100 records like this and wouldn't even know what I'm missing. That makes me kind of bummed.

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That said, while I personally believe the sound discerned from one copy of a record pressed a few hundred copies later than another copy of that second record won't yield any sonic difference to the naked ear.

The only way to test this theory would be to use a large numbered series (like Mellon collie and the infinite sadness, for example) but that only brings up the question, are the records actually stuffed in the order they were pressed, or is the plant simply numbering the sleeves?

Hmmm....

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Have you ever looked at Steve Hoffmann's forum? You might get less douchey and more 'audiophile-informed' responses there. Or not. I dunno. Be curious to hear what they have to say.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/

I don't have too many variants anymore, but the Tarantula pic disc sounds markedly better than the color one I have, as has been discussed. But that is diff. pressing.

I don't think any of the Goddamnit Redux colors I have/had sounded especially good.

I do have like 6 fucking copies of First World Manifesto for some stupid reason. Maybe I'll spin those back to back sometime.

I'll have to see what else I have. I have 2 copies of Circa Now on color. I remember one I had on yellow marble originally that sounded killer, and I'm not quite sure the ones I got later on sound quite as good. For whatever that's worth.

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In the early '90s, someone did a test of sound quality as perceived by the human ear. The subjects given the choice between pristine vinyl, cassette tape or CDs. They listened to the same songs on all three formats and overwhelmingly chose the cassette tape as the better-sounding format. Go figure.

Thurston Moore has said a few times that he believes a normal-bias cassette recording is the best when played on quality equipment. Who knows. I have a cassette player in my car with a Bose sound system and it sounds incredible (and doesn't skip like my fucking CD player).

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Have you ever looked at Steve Hoffmann's forum? You might get less douchey and more 'audiophile-informed' responses there. Or not. I dunno. Be curious to hear what they have to say.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/

I don't have too many variants anymore, but the Tarantula pic disc sounds markedly better than the color one I have, as has been discussed. But that is diff. pressing.

The Tarantula pic disc was cut and pressed at Pirates. The Recess one was cut by Lucky. If you look at the Lucky version, the grooves are squeezed tight together with lots of dead space towards the center. I think he does this to remove distortion. However, I think (and could be wrong) that squeezing the grooves together reduces the low end of the sound. That's why the Pirates version has a fuller sound, despite it being a pic disc. If you play all of the FWM discs, you'll notice the pic disc sounds the worst and the black sounds the best.

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In the early '90s, someone did a test of sound quality as perceived by the human ear. The subjects given the choice between pristine vinyl, cassette tape or CDs. They listened to the same songs on all three formats and overwhelmingly chose the cassette tape as the better-sounding format. Go figure.

I remember reading an article where this study was mentioned. If I remember correctly, it was also pointed out that the problem with cassette sound quality is that it degrades at a significantly faster rate per play than vinyl. So, first listen, cassette's best. After a bunch of plays, vinyl wins. And then the "progressives" favored CDs because the 1,000th listen would sound the same as the first, whereas the vinyl and cassette would hardly be listenable at that point.

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So you're saying that if I own two colors and don't know which is first and which is second press, I should be able to tell by playing them? If the matrices match.

It's not absolute.

But if it were a record with a considerably large print run and then half a decade between pressings, you might tell a difference.

As mentioned earlier, I just got the NOFX Frisbee on color. I was going to give away my black, but did a sound test first and the black sounds fuller. The color has pops, surface noise (yes, I cleaned it) and a shallow sound.

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Dood, clean your records before playing them. 90% of the differences you hear are just mold/wax/release agent/dust/dirt/etc...

I Highly recommend the DiscDoctor system... also stop talking about stampers, we all know a worn stamper is not going to sound as good as a clean fresh one, but the difference is unnoticeable because no vinyl presser will overuse a stamper, it's cheaper to make copies of the mother.

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In the early '90s, someone did a test of sound quality as perceived by the human ear. The subjects given the choice between pristine vinyl, cassette tape or CDs. They listened to the same songs on all three formats and overwhelmingly chose the cassette tape as the better-sounding format. Go figure.

I remember reading an article where this study was mentioned. If I remember correctly, it was also pointed out that the problem with cassette sound quality is that it degrades at a significantly faster rate per play than vinyl. So, first listen, cassette's best. After a bunch of plays, vinyl wins. And then the "progressives" favored CDs because the 1,000th listen would sound the same as the first, whereas the vinyl and cassette would hardly be listenable at that point.

Yes, I think that's correct. Also, they theorized that a big part of why people chose the cassette was its mediocrity. LPs tend to have exceptional lows and OK mids but poor highs. CDs have great highs and OK mids and poor lows. Cassettes on the other hand have excellent mids and rather bland highs and lows. Basically, most people enjoy a bland, minimally dynamic sound.

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And my preference for black vinyl has a lot to do with principle. I think it sounds better, yes. But I also dislike the culture of colored vinyl collecting. I think it detracts from the actual listening of the music and has been almost completely responsible for the 200-300 percent increase in the cost of records over the past 10 years. A decade ago a record generally cost $7.50 -- $10. Even if you take inflation and cost of living increases into account, that's a ridiculous increase.

OK, whining completed.

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