Ferguson, and other issues

[thebiglebowski]

are we just exhausted at this point? is that why there's no conversation in here.. because it just feels that fucking futile?

I was wondering the same thing, especially since we have a fairly prominent African American poster on here from Charleston. I figured maybe a lot of discussion happened in the small talk thread, which I don't read usually because it moves too fast to follow.

[TFP]

Being a native Charlestonian, I am proud of the way my city has handled this. This was a terrible deliberate terrorist act by one man and the community has come together. There is no rioting, there is forgiveness.

[thebiglebowski]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/suspected-killer-dylann-roof-s-racist-manifesto-surfaces-154324556.html

[Family Friendly Rap God]

Being a native Charlestonian, I am proud of the way my city has handled this. This was a terrible deliberate terrorist act by one man and the community has come together. There is no rioting, there is forgiveness.

Same here. As a transplant, I'm proud of how this city has held together. My fear is that if Officer Slager gets off this city might blow.

[Team Avatar]

as people who live in Charleston, what do you think about the flag still flying over the capitol?  The flag is rooted in racism and it shocks me personally - but I read somewhere that any political attempts to take it down failed.

[GradedOnACurve]

I don't understand how people pride themselves with the Confederate flag. I mean it was a group of states that technically declared themselves independent and seceded, then fought a war against the rest of the US. Technically when you fly that you fly an enemy flag. With that logic, I should fly the flag of the Soviet Union outside my place since we never directly engaged them in war anyway.

[Family Friendly Rap God]

as people who live in Charleston, what do you think about the flag still flying over the capitol? The flag is rooted in racism and it shocks me personally - but I read somewhere that any political attempts to take it down failed.

It bothers the hell out of me. I didn't understand the meaning and pride behind it until I moved here but regardless it belongs in a museum not on top of the state Capitol. The problem is that just as much it means pride for country and ancestry, it's irrevocably tied to slavery and bigotry. it's quite easily a 50/50 split of you were to poll the public about it.

[aflycon]

What's in the spoiler is not directly related to the conversation, but still sort of relevant/food for thought.

 

I don't understand how people pride themselves with the Confederate flag. I mean it was a group of states that technically declared themselves independent and seceded, then fought a war against the rest of the US. Technically when you fly that you fly an enemy flag. With that logic, I should fly the flag of the Soviet Union outside my place since we never directly engaged them in war anyway.

 

One thing that's very often stressed in American History classes, and key to understanding the Confederacy, is that a very large part of the reason behind the secession of the Confederate states and, as it followed, the Civil War was not directly related to the right to own slaves but instead the rights of states to exercise... well, states' rights. While much of the support for the Confederacy was fueled by racism and social Darwinism, not everybody who subscribed to this ideology was necessarily a racist and certainly not all of them were slaveholders. This was a time of great sociopolitical change in the United States where classical Federalism (among other things like, thankfully, slavery) was being abandoned and many Southerners felt threatened by this, along with the continued industrialization of the nation...

 

Well, my point is that while the Confederate flag is very closely intertwined with racist ideology, it may very well hold some other, more rational significance to some of the people who fly it. That being said, if they are so pro-Federalist they could just save themselves the trouble of being branded an inbred, racist redneck and fly a Federalist flag, or get an Articles of Confederation bumper sticker or some shit. I personally think that flying the Confederate flag is repulsive, but just as we have a right to burn the American flag, we have a right to fly whichever one we want - even if it makes some people (read: a lot of people read: probably all of the black population, rightfully) uncomfortable. The issue of racism being bred and taught in places like Charleston is while closely related, another issue.

 

On the other hand: Abandoning all of my understanding of cultural anthropology and my culturally-relativistic point of view, I fail to see much of any value in Southern culture, which like the Confederate ideology is so closely intertwined with deep-seated racism. Strictly speaking empirically it breeds and encourages racism in a way that makes it very difficult to address this problem in our progressive, politically-correct society. I could be taking a cynical leap by saying it may be something beyond our control, but I fear that I am not. I hope that this is something to change with time.

 

Anyway, to actually contribute to the conversation:

 

I don't pray to anything, but I think that's the only thing to be done at this point if that's what you do. To pray to whatever you believe in, or just to hope that the families of the victims of this shooting may find some closure (and the family of the perpetrator, as well - their world has been turned upside-down in an entirely different way). 

 

This shit is fucked, and it needs to change. But it's not something that happens overnight. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

the main reason people were rioting in ferguson/baltimore/etc. was because of violence and brutality from the police, who are public servants, and the lack of criminal prosecution of the crimes being committed. That is why no one is rioting over this piece of shit racist, he's not charged with serving and protecting citizens, he's just a fucked up piece of shit who did a horrible fucking, and will with out a doubt, be sentenced to life in prison without parole.  IF he some how got off, you will see riots.

 

My blood fucking boils hearing anyone on TV try to minimize this as mental illness, or an attack on christianity, or anything other than a racist taking out a terrorist attack on a group of minorities.  

[TFP]

the main reason people were rioting in ferguson/baltimore/etc. was because of violence and brutality from the police, who are public servants, and the lack of criminal prosecution of the crimes being committed. That is why no one is rioting over this piece of shit racist, he's not charged with serving and protecting citizens, he's just a fucked up piece of shit who did a horrible fucking, and will with out a doubt, be sentenced to life in prison without parole.  IF he some how got off, you will see riots.

 

My blood fucking boils hearing anyone on TV try to minimize this as mental illness, or an attack on christianity, or anything other than a racist taking out a terrorist attack on a group of minorities.  

 

 

Um, Charleston ALSO did not riot in the Michael Slager case.... we are a different city and we refuse to let outside agitators like DeRay McKesson and good old Al Sharpton to affect us. 

[TFP]

I find it disgusting how the media and people from outside of Charleston (on Twitter) are trying to make this into a race war. Everything you say can get twisted. This was a lone young man and he does not represent Charleston, he was from Columbia for goodness sakes. 

[TFP]

Like if you support #GoHomeDeRay you are now deemed racist by people on Twittler outside of Charleston and South Carolina. This DeRay guy is another classic divider in our country and he is profiting from his escapades. 

[TFP]

It is really getting kind of comical that no one can really have discourse anymore without being called some kind of -ist or bigot. "You're racist" people don't know each others hearts and if you have a differing opinion you are shut down with being labeled something and marginalized. I am not saying there is no such thing as real racism or sexism etc. but people have to relearn how to have conversations again without shutting down debate. 

[GalacticMelt]

as people who live in Charleston, what do you think about the flag still flying over the capitol?  The flag is rooted in racism and it shocks me personally - but I read somewhere that any political attempts to take it down failed.

 

I don't live in Charleston but I do live in the South. And IMO, the flag is not rooted in racism. Now there are some idiots who use that flag (like the KKK, white trash skinheads and this idiot who shot up the Church) to try and align the flag with their twisted racism, but the flag itself stood for the Confederacy, who fought for the rights of the individual states when the Government became a copy of the behemoth these people left England for in the first place. I do not view the Confederate Flag that way, and neither do millions of others. In fact, the U.S. Flag was the flag that waived over slave boats, slave ports in NY and Boston who allowed the ships to dock, and civic houses when slaves were being beaten in the streets. The U.S. Flag also waived over the courthouse in Ferguson when power-hungry police and irate citizens were throwing rocks and bottles at each other. We can debate about flag all day and night, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

For decades before the war, the South, through harsh tariffs, had been supplying about 85% of the country’s revenue, nearly all of which was being spent in the North to boost its economy, build manufacturing, infrastructure, railroads, canals, etc. With the passage of the 47% Morrill Tariff the final nail was in the coffin.They wanted out. As for the Civil War, there are many things I disagreed with the South about, but let's not forget that the North owned slaves too, and the Emancipation Proclamation was not created until the 3rd year of the Civil War. So prior to that there was no mention of slavery anywhere in terms of freedom. But again, we can debate the political reasoning night and day, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

I fear that this leads into censorship and freedom of speech. We will start banning certain flags, certain symbols, and let others remain. But who decides what stays and goes?

 

The key to all of this is stopping racism and hatred. If someone sees that in a flag, well, that's their right, but for me it isn't about a symbol, it's about the way we raise our kids, the way we perceive others, and the way we want to be treated. This nut job racist freak would've shot up that Church regardless of whether or not a flag was flying. And if everyone concentrates on a flag that doesn't help matters, we need to concentrate on why this kid was so whacked in the head, and why he decided to kill people who were peacefully at a Church, and why his hatred for his fellow man's skin color caused him to creep over the edge. I was hoping he would've killed himself so we as taxpayers would've saved the expense of having a trial, feeding and clothing him in prison, etc. I guarantee we'll spend more tax dollars on him in prison than the victim's families will ever get.

 

We can't waste time discussing a flag, we need to discuss why hatred exists and do our best to end it. Our generation needs to end this now or some nutjob (like this kid) will end up getting a high level government job and press the "Nuclear Attack" button and wipe out an entire country because he doesn't like their skin color.

 

Ugh....

[GradedOnACurve]

What's in the spoiler is not directly related to the conversation, but still sort of relevant/food for thought.

 

 

One thing that's very often stressed in American History classes, and key to understanding the Confederacy, is that a very large part of the reason behind the secession of the Confederate states and, as it followed, the Civil War was not directly related to the right to own slaves but instead the rights of states to exercise... well, states' rights. While much of the support for the Confederacy was fueled by racism and social Darwinism, not everybody who subscribed to this ideology was necessarily a racist and certainly not all of them were slaveholders. This was a time of great sociopolitical change in the United States where classical Federalism (among other things like, thankfully, slavery) was being abandoned and many Southerners felt threatened by this, along with the continued industrialization of the nation...

 

Well, my point is that while the Confederate flag is very closely intertwined with racist ideology, it may very well hold some other, more rational significance to some of the people who fly it. That being said, if they are so pro-Federalist they could just save themselves the trouble of being branded an inbred, racist redneck and fly a Federalist flag, or get an Articles of Confederation bumper sticker or some shit. I personally think that flying the Confederate flag is repulsive, but just as we have a right to burn the American flag, we have a right to fly whichever one we want - even if it makes some people (read: a lot of people read: probably all of the black population, rightfully) uncomfortable. The issue of racism being bred and taught in places like Charleston is while closely related, another issue.

 

On the other hand: Abandoning all of my understanding of cultural anthropology and my culturally-relativistic point of view, I fail to see much of any value in Southern culture, which like the Confederate ideology is so closely intertwined with deep-seated racism. Strictly speaking empirically it breeds and encourages racism in a way that makes it very difficult to address this problem in our progressive, politically-correct society. I could be taking a cynical leap by saying it may be something beyond our control, but I fear that I am not. I hope that this is something to change with time.

 

Anyway, to actually contribute to the conversation:

 

I don't pray to anything, but I think that's the only thing to be done at this point if that's what you do. To pray to whatever you believe in, or just to hope that the families of the victims of this shooting may find some closure (and the family of the perpetrator, as well - their world has been turned upside-down in an entirely different way). 

 

This shit is fucked, and it needs to change. But it's not something that happens overnight. 

 

Your response was well said in terms of its analysis. I wasn't really talking about the flag as a racist symbol as much as the flag is representative of an enemy of the United States during the 1860's. That alone should be reason enough to not fly on any state capital or be part of any state flag. People who argue about states rights often times hide under the cloak of the confederate flag as a representative symbol, but really it was flown by an opposing government and army. There is no fathomable way to reconcile it. People will try to regardless.

[Family Friendly Rap God]

The governor called for vote tomorrow that null the flag down.

Well spoken points in here all around

[TFP]

I don't live in Charleston but I do live in the South. And IMO, the flag is not rooted in racism. Now there are some idiots who use that flag (like the KKK, white trash skinheads and this idiot who shot up the Church) to try and align the flag with their twisted racism, but the flag itself stood for the Confederacy, who fought for the rights of the individual states when the Government became a copy of the behemoth these people left England for in the first place. I do not view the Confederate Flag that way, and neither do millions of others. In fact, the U.S. Flag was the flag that waived over slave boats, slave ports in NY and Boston who allowed the ships to dock, and civic houses when slaves were being beaten in the streets. The U.S. Flag also waived over the courthouse in Ferguson when power-hungry police and irate citizens were throwing rocks and bottles at each other. We can debate about flag all day and night, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

For decades before the war, the South, through harsh tariffs, had been supplying about 85% of the country’s revenue, nearly all of which was being spent in the North to boost its economy, build manufacturing, infrastructure, railroads, canals, etc. With the passage of the 47% Morrill Tariff the final nail was in the coffin.They wanted out. As for the Civil War, there are many things I disagreed with the South about, but let's not forget that the North owned slaves too, and the Emancipation Proclamation was not created until the 3rd year of the Civil War. So prior to that there was no mention of slavery anywhere in terms of freedom. But again, we can debate the political reasoning night and day, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

I fear that this leads into censorship and freedom of speech. We will start banning certain flags, certain symbols, and let others remain. But who decides what stays and goes?

 

The key to all of this is stopping racism and hatred. If someone sees that in a flag, well, that's their right, but for me it isn't about a symbol, it's about the way we raise our kids, the way we perceive others, and the way we want to be treated. This nut job racist freak would've shot up that Church regardless of whether or not a flag was flying. And if everyone concentrates on a flag that doesn't help matters, we need to concentrate on why this kid was so whacked in the head, and why he decided to kill people who were peacefully at a Church, and why his hatred for his fellow man's skin color caused him to creep over the edge. I was hoping he would've killed himself so we as taxpayers would've saved the expense of having a trial, feeding and clothing him in prison, etc. I guarantee we'll spend more tax dollars on him in prison than the victim's families will ever get.

 

We can't waste time discussing a flag, we need to discuss why hatred exists and do our best to end it. Our generation needs to end this now or some nutjob (like this kid) will end up getting a high level government job and press the "Nuclear Attack" button and wipe out an entire country because he doesn't like their skin color.

 

Ugh....

 

 

Very well said, there was more to the Confederacy and the south than the terrible slavery. 

[thebiglebowski]

I think I remember Howard Zinn warning to be cautious about applying the morale and cultural standards of the present to people from the past in a people's history. Pretty much everyone who lived more than 100 years ago did things we would strongly frown on today, even the ones we celebrate. They wil probably find fault in some of Dr. King's actions in 100 years from now.

[Nucleus Sests]

I think I remember Howard Zinn warning to be cautious about applying the morale and cultural standards of the present to people from the past in a people's history. Pretty much everyone who lived more than 100 years ago did things we would strongly frown on today, even the ones we celebrate. They wil probably find fault in some of Dr. King's actions in 100 years from now.

 

Too late, Dr. King advocated for equality which is inconsistent with the idea of "racism = power + privilege."

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

We can't waste time discussing a flag, we need to discuss why hatred exists and do our best to end it. Our generation needs to end this now or some nutjob (like this kid) will end up getting a high level government job and press the "Nuclear Attack" button and wipe out an entire country because he doesn't like their skin color.

 

Ugh....

 

You know what helps with ending, or curbing hatred?  removing symbols of it.  Regardless of what the flag once stood for, what it symbolizes now is not that, especially to minorities.  Discussing WHY minorities and people today view that flag as offensive IS discussing why hatred exists.  I grew up in northern PA, in the country, and almost everyone I grew up with who had that symbol on their truck, or t-shirt, or flying in their yard also dropped the n-bomb, also referred to all mexicans as illegals, etc etc etc.  Its not a Southern racism issue, its a cultural racism issue, it exists in all corners of this country.  I actually applaud Walmart's decision to remove all merchandise with the flag on it.  

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

my wife, who teaches cultural literacy/social studies, just posted this link on what materials, as educators in the classroom, at home, or out in the world, utilize what this site has gathered to educate everyone.

 

http://aaihs.org/resources/charlestonsyllabus/

[GalacticMelt]

You know what helps with ending, or curbing hatred?  removing symbols of it.  Regardless of what the flag once stood for, what it symbolizes now is not that, especially to minorities.  Discussing WHY minorities and people today view that flag as offensive IS discussing why hatred exists.  I grew up in northern PA, in the country, and almost everyone I grew up with who had that symbol on their truck, or t-shirt, or flying in their yard also dropped the n-bomb, also referred to all mexicans as illegals, etc etc etc.  Its not a Southern racism issue, its a cultural racism issue, it exists in all corners of this country.  I actually applaud Walmart's decision to remove all merchandise with the flag on it.  

 

Symbols are just symbols. If you consider them a physical manifestation of feelings that's your opinion, but removing said symbols because you feel offended and therefore taking the right to have those symbols from others stomps on natural freedom of expression. I'm all for discussion because many people today, especially young ones, do not understand the entire big picture of the Civil War. I think we all need to go back to history class.

 

And I know people who have that symbol on their vehicles as well, and are nice, cordial and giving to their communities. I also have neighbors who are card carrying liberals who said they would never vote for a black man (Obama). We can run through stereotypes (and exceptions) all day long. If the symbol offends you, by all means, fight to remove it. It's your right. And I will fight to defend it, because different people believe in different things, and censoring those expressions eventually leads to oppression for everyone.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Symbols are just symbols. If you consider them a physical manifestation of feelings that's your opinion, but removing said symbols because you feel offended and therefore taking the right to have those symbols from others stomps on natural freedom of expression. I'm all for discussion because many people today, especially young ones, do not understand the entire big picture of the Civil War. I think we all need to go back to history class.

 

And I know people who have that symbol on their vehicles as well, and are nice, cordial and giving to their communities. I also have neighbors who are card carrying liberals who said they would never vote for a black man (Obama). We can run through stereotypes (and exceptions) all day long. If the symbol offends you, by all means, fight to remove it. It's your right. And I will fight to defend it, because different people believe in different things, and censoring those expressions eventually leads to oppression for everyone.

 

do you feel the same way about the swastika flag?  Its just a symbol, right?

[+hecollec+or]

The swastika is a positive symbol used in Hinduism & Buddhism. It didn't have a negative stigma until the nazis got ahold of it.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I know that.