Ferguson, and other issues

[Family Friendly Rap God]

The flag is not on top of the statehouse, it is on the grounds at a memorial.

It was there until 2000 when legislation forced them to move it

[WAXXX]

It was there until 2000 when legislation forced them to move it

 

the fact that it stayed up so long gives me little hope that racial issues in the US will be resolved anytime soon.

[GradedOnACurve]

It amazes me the length people go to in order to defend the Confederate flag. I don't know why there is any debate as to whether it should fly on any state building, or be part of any state flag. I mean we gotta remember the heritage right? It's important to remember that a group of states seceded from the US, formed their own constitution, and went to war with the rest of the US. Its important to remember that the same group of states had some of the strictest laws that denied people of color some pretty basic rights. Its important to remember that some of these same states continue to spearhead strict laws against the LGBT community. Funny how these states echo the sentiment for government to leave them alone, but enacted laws on a state level that intruded on people's skin color, sexual orientation, and lifestyle choices.

 

But hey, states rights and heritage right? Doesn't matter if that was an enemy flag at one point in history. Real romantic.

[GradedOnACurve]

Just to be clear of two things:

 

1. Not looking to change peoples minds. Just making some points I thought were obvious.

2. Some of the issues I mentioned are not limited to states that were once part of the Confederacy, but these issues were are most certainly found there. Also as the poster formerly known as Mike T said people outside of these area that cloak themselves in the Confederate flag often times echo these sentiments.

[Bladewillisisdead]

Also, the South lost. Why are they all so proud? Us yankee faggots kicked their asses.

[Guest]

Also, the South lost. Why are they all so proud? Us yankee faggots kicked their asses.

 

i'm really not looking to start anything, especially since you're obviously joking. but you see how ridiculous it is to chide a bunch of people for saying females regardless of context when you go into another part of the boards and use the word faggots... right?

 

ya know.. as long as we're all on this kick of finding common ground and understanding.

[harryq]

I like how a guy shoots people in a church, and ~all anyone is talking about is whether or not a flag should be waving on a memorial in front of the capitol building.  Last I checked, the apartheid South African and Rhodesian flags weren't flying in SC, but the killer still managed to be influenced by their history...

 

Anyhoo, carry on.  I'm sure (re)moving a flag will do more good than some sort of gun control legislation or something to do with mental health.

[Bladewillisisdead]

Or you know, when I was in the south I was called a Yankee faggot several times a day.

[Family Friendly Rap God]

Jesus not the "gun control" argument again.

[Guest]

when i was in high school in new england, i was called a faggot several times a day. they knew better than to add the yankee part, because i probably would have fucking lit up the whole school and smeared GO BOSOX across all the lockers with their blood.

[GalacticMelt]

Also, the South lost. Why are they all so proud? Us yankee faggots kicked their asses.

Classy.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

It amazes me the length people go to in order to defend the Confederate flag. I don't know why there is any debate as to whether it should fly on any state building, or be part of any state flag. I mean we gotta remember the heritage right? It's important to remember that a group of states seceded from the US, formed their own constitution, and went to war with the rest of the US. Its important to remember that the same group of states had some of the strictest laws that denied people of color some pretty basic rights. Its important to remember that some of these same states continue to spearhead strict laws against the LGBT community. Funny how these states echo the sentiment for government to leave them alone, but enacted laws on a state level that intruded on people's skin color, sexual orientation, and lifestyle choices.

 

But hey, states rights and heritage right? Doesn't matter if that was an enemy flag at one point in history. Real romantic.

 

amen.

 

Randy said everything I meant to say about comparing the two.  I appreciate it, I didnt have time after I asked the question to respond to some of ya'll.

[GalacticMelt]

It amazes me the length people go to in order to defend the Confederate flag. I don't know why there is any debate as to whether it should fly on any state building, or be part of any state flag. I mean we gotta remember the heritage right? It's important to remember that a group of states seceded from the US, formed their own constitution, and went to war with the rest of the US. Its important to remember that the same group of states had some of the strictest laws that denied people of color some pretty basic rights. Its important to remember that some of these same states continue to spearhead strict laws against the LGBT community. Funny how these states echo the sentiment for government to leave them alone, but enacted laws on a state level that intruded on people's skin color, sexual orientation, and lifestyle choices.

 

But hey, states rights and heritage right? Doesn't matter if that was an enemy flag at one point in history. Real romantic.

 

Actually no "war" was ever declared by either side officially. Lincoln took it upon himself to send troops when Congress was out of session, so no official vote was made from a Congressional standpoint one way or another. Only Congress, according to the Constitution, could grant powers to declare war. Now some say the North trespassed into Confederate territory (Sovereign land) at Fort. Sumter. Other say the Confederacy was never officially recognized by the North and therefore trespassing was never an issue, the North had every right to be there. That's another discussion. 

 

Blacks owned slaves too. And many lived in the North. And the harbors the ships docked in were in the North. And the slave trade actually gave a financial boost to the North as industry began to grow in the South and the North demanded more and more taxes. So your "romantic" view of the North riding in and freeing all mankind from the evil clutches of the South is vastly skewed.

 

Also, according to the latest U.S. Census report, many of the original "North" states have quite a wide margin of white-to-black population today:

 

New Hampshire - 93.0% white   1.1% black

Rhode Island - 81.4% white   5.7% black

Pennsylvania - 81.0% white  10.8% black

MA - 80.4% white                6.6% black

Connecticut - 77.5% white   10.1% black

 

There is a dominant presence of whites compared to blacks in these areas. I guess the North didn't practice what they preached regarding integration?

 

Interesting information from the US Archives as well:

 

They found an order from Mr Lincoln in June 1863 authorising a British colonial agent, John Hodge, to recruit freed slaves to be sent to colonies in what are now the countries of Guyana and Belize.

“Hodge reported back to a British minister that Lincoln said it was his ‘honest desire’ that this emigration went ahead,” said Mr Page, a historian at Oxford University.

The plan came despite an earlier test shipment of about 450 freed slaves to Haiti resulting in disaster. The former slaves were struck by smallpox and starvation, and survivors had to be rescued.

Mr Lincoln also considered sending freed slaves to what is now Panama, to construct a canal — decades before work began on the modern canal there in 1904.

The colonisation plan collapsed by 1864. The British were fearful the confederate states of the American south may win the civil war, reverse emancipation, and regard British agents as thieves. Congress also voted to remove funding.

Yet as late as that autumn, a letter sent to the president by his attorney-general showed he was still actively exploring whether the policy could be implemented, Mr Page said.

“It says ‘further to your question, yes, I think you can still pursue this policy of colonisation even though the money has been taken away’,” he said.

[Bladewillisisdead]

Classy.

Says the dude super into defending the confederate flag.

[Bladewillisisdead]

I'm not even going to pretend to be diplomatic or understanding, the confederate flag is for ignorant scum.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

jesus fucking christ

[abovetheearth]

wooooooooow

[GalacticMelt]

Says the dude super into defending the confederate flag.

 

Says the dude using the word "F*ggot." Odd how you find a flag offensive but you're okay using a homophobic slur. And by calling people offensive names it gives the appearance that you're as intolerant and prejudiced as you accuse others of being.

 

And as I've said from the beginning, I feel everyone has the right to choose what they want to display. If the voters turn it down, so be it. If they approve it, so be it. But everyone has a right to choose. If you're okay taking that freedom of choice from people then so be it, but many want that choice.

 

And if you don't like the stats and information I posted, much of it is found online through Associated Press articles and historical data. Don't get upset at me for posting it, it's already been out there for awhile.

 

I'm exiting this thread now. This is unfortunately causing more divide than ever. I didn't join VC to debate against fellow posters, no matter our differences, but it's turned into that. We're all brothers no matter what. Hopefully we all reach common ground at some point.

[abovetheearth]

Actually no "war" was ever declared by either side officially. Lincoln took it upon himself to send troops when Congress was out of session, so no official vote was made from a Congressional standpoint one way or another. Only Congress, according to the Constitution, could grant powers to declare war. Now some say the North trespassed into Confederate territory (Sovereign land) at Fort. Sumter. Other say the Confederacy was never officially recognized by the North and therefore trespassing was never an issue, the North had every right to be there. That's another discussion.

 

He did declare war. theres an entire Harper's Weekly about it. its called 'President Abraham Lincolns Declaration of War'. he did it via Martial Law.

 

Whereas, The laws of the United States have been for some time past and now are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law : Now, therefore, I, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, President of the United States, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution and the laws, have thought fit to call forth, and hereby do call forth, the Militia of the several States of the Union, to the aggregate number of 75,000, in order to suppress said combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. The details for this object will be immediately communicated to the State authorities through the War Department.

[WAXXX]

And as I've said from the beginning, I feel everyone has the right to choose what they want to display. If the voters turn it down, so be it. If they approve it, so be it. But everyone has a right to choice.

 

it's about holding a state institution to a higher standard than your average bigot, regardless of popular vote.

[Bladewillisisdead]

Yeah, I'm totally cool with homophobic slurs. That's me.

It's not like I used it in the context of a joke making fun of the South's bigotry.

That's what the confederate flag means to me. Bigotry. On multiple ocassions in Texas I was harassed, unprovoked, by shitheads with confederate flag belt buckles and shit. My father was jumped walking home from a bar in Houston, hospitalized for weeks, and suffered brain damage by a group of men calling him a yankee faggot as well. A 60+ year old man hit in the head from behind with a metal pipe. Because he had a Northeastern accent.

To a huge amount of people the flag represents centuries of hatred and oppression. Hatred and oppression that still exist today. So yeah, I won't even entertain the "but heritage and state's rights though" argument. It's a symbol of hate. When I see a truck with a confederate flag on it I don't assume "oh that guy clearly wishes he could own slaves" but I do think "Well, that guy isn't very educated" I also don't assume everyone in the south is a bad person. I know they aren't. But there's a culture of hate that is much stronger and more "normal" in the South. It's hate that still exists everywhere, I'm not deluded enough to think other places are perfect. But my in my limited time in the south I experienced it more than I have anywhere else in the rest of my life.

[GalacticMelt]

Yeah, I'm totally cool with homophobic slurs. That's me.

It's not like I used it in the context of a joke making fun of the South's bigotry.

That's what the confederate flag means to me. Bigotry. On multiple ocassions in Texas I was harassed, unprovoked, by shitheads with confederate flag belt buckles and shit. My father was jumped walking home from a bar in Houston, hospitalized for weeks, and suffered brain damage by a group of men calling him a yankee faggot as well. A 60+ year old man hit in the head from behind with a metal pipe. Because he had a Northeastern accent.

To a huge amount of people the flag represents centuries of hatred and oppression. Hatred and oppression that still exist today. So yeah, I won't even entertain the "but heritage and state's rights though" argument. It's a symbol of hate. When I see a truck with a confederate flag on it I don't assume "oh that guy clearly wishes he could own slaves" but I do think "Well, that guy isn't very educated" I also don't assume everyone in the south is a bad person. I know they aren't. But there's a culture of hate that is much stronger and more "normal" in the South. It's hate that still exists everywhere, I'm not deluded enough to think other places are perfect. But my in my limited time in the south I experienced it more than I have anywhere else in the rest of my life.

 

I gave your post a thumbs up, honest and to-the-point. Your experiences have molded your view of the situation, as have mine. I'm sorry you experienced that, and all that I can say is that much of the South is not like that. I've seen it, yes, but also seen it briefly living in California and, of all places, Colorado. Unfortunately there are shits all over, as you said, but I'm fighting to try and form an understanding. We may never agree, but we're still brothers, and hopefully still united to try and make the U.S. a better place. We have different ideas on how to do that. But that's another great facet of this country, agree to disagree, and still fight the good fight.

[WAXXX]

When I see a truck with a confederate flag on it I don't assume "oh that guy clearly wishes he could own slaves" 

 

when i see someone sporting a confederate flag i assume "that guy clearly wishes he could own slaves."

[KingTacoMunster]

WAXXX, if that's true, then you are just as ignorant. For some, that may be correct, but you just cant assume all of them are like that.

 

Edit: Before you or anyone else attacks me for being a "southern bigot", I do believe the flag should be down and put in a museum where "history" belongs. The flag does not represent all people in South Carolina/the south, so it should not be presented as such. I understand what the flag represented, but unfortunately there are "doo-doo" heads that made it mean something much worse. I guess what Im trying to say is, bring the flag down and you cant put all southern people in one group.

 

Plus, I have seen Northern folks treat southern people poorly. Its not a matter of north/south, its people. Some people are worse than others. And we need to be united across all boards, or the past will keep repeating itself.

[WAXXX]

WAXXX, if that's true, then you are just as ignorant. For some, that may be correct, but you just cant assume all of them are like that.

 

my assumptions are based on knowledge and experience. i live in the south and have plenty of racist relatives. i've never spoken with someone who sports a confederate flag, who after 5-6 beers doesn't say something like "slavery is not all bad," "i'd own slaves if i could," or just gets pretty racist in general. i'm not attacking you for being a southern bigot. i am a judgmental person though.