thebiglebowski Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 I think this says it well: http://www.blessyouboys.com/2013/11/15/5107586/miguel-cabreras-2013-al-mvp-backlash-came-from-the-usual-suspects-kenny-law--passan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradedOnACurve Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Classic counting stats such as RBIs are a terrible comparison for this. Trout is a lead off hitter. Cabrera hits 3rd or 4th with better hitters in front of him. Also RBIs require teammates to be on base so if you have an awesome hitter on your team (ahem David Wright) and no one is one base in front of you your RBI totals are going to suck. I think Miguel Cabrera was definitely a better hitter this year, and some people are all "This might be better than his triple crown season last year" um yeah it definitely was but people get caught up in an award that is a product of overall league performance vs individual and people get all fogey and sentimental. I do agree with Brian Kenny that an even better Cabrera this year is not better than Trout both years. Cabrera is definitely a better hitter though, wish more people gave a shit about defense though (see Tulowitzski vs Bruan for '07 ROY) but maybe we'll get there one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradedOnACurve Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Also at least they got the NL MVP right. I love McCutchen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I'll admit to not knowing a ton about defensive metrics, which is why I use a catch-all stat like dWAR on the defensive side vs. looking at the individual hitting stats. Why is runs saved the stat to focus on? Why is it inconsistent with dWAR? Not just myself but in general, I think these inconsistencies are a huge part of the reason why the voters focus on offensive stats over defensive. Even if the runs saved stat is accurate, Cabrera is +34 on runs produced and -21 on runs allowed -- doesn't he win out? Just what I look at, not necessarily a knock on dWAR. But lets be honest, you don't need defensive metrics to know that Cabrera is a negative at third while Trout is at the very least neutral in left. Cabrera was obviously the best offensive player in baseball last season. He was also the 15th worst base runner and the very worst fielder. I believe that Trout passes him easily when those 2 things are factored in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Also at least they got the NL MVP right. I love McCutchen. seriously, right? though, honestly, had the diamondbacks made the playoffs, goldschmidt would have won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 I'd MUCH rather have goldshmidt for the next 7 than Prince!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 He was also the 15th worst base runner and the very worst fielder. I believe that Trout passes him easily when those 2 things are factored in. How do you justify Cabrera being the worst fielder? He was about middle of the road in terms of fielding percentage. He's got a pretty solid arm. I'd call him a neutral defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 How do you justify Cabrera being the worst fielder? He was about middle of the road in terms of fielding percentage. He's got a pretty solid arm. I'd call him a neutral defender. Fangraphs had him at negative 17 runs, last in baseball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 I get the need for sabermetrics but I also trust my eyes, and I don't see him being the worst fielder in baseball. Limited range, good arm, makes the plays he's supposed to. I also am not sure I would put a lot of value on that stat when it has Cabrera worse than Pedro Alvarez, who had 2 and a half times as many errors as Cabrera. And while I haven't seen Alvarez play much, I'm going to assume based on his 6-3, 220 frame, and lack of speed (2 steals) that he wasn't making up for the errors with incredible range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 I get the need for sabermetrics but I also trust my eyes, and I don't see him being the worst fielder in baseball. Limited range, good arm, makes the plays he's supposed to. I also am not sure I would put a lot of value on that stat when it has Cabrera worse than Pedro Alvarez, who had 2 and a half times as many errors as Cabrera. And while I haven't seen Alvarez play much, I'm going to assume based on his 6-3, 220 frame, and lack of speed (2 steals) that he wasn't making up for the errors with incredible range. Limited range is an understatement. Like I said, no stat is perfect, especially defensive stats, but you are in the extreme minority in thinking that Cabrera even approaches average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 There's been a lot of rumors/talk about trading Prince Fielder. I'd be so fucking happy if they did. I'm sure it won't. Would probably have to throw in Scherzer's final arbitration year and still pick up some of Fielder's salary. Dombrowski is a trade wizard, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fooood Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 There's been a lot of rumors/talk about trading Prince Fielder. I'd be so fucking happy if they did. I'm sure it won't. Would probably have to throw in Scherzer's final arbitration year and still pick up some of Fielder's salary. Dombrowski is a trade wizard, though... I'm hearing Wilson is talking with the tigers for a closing spot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Tigers are certainly going to sign a veteran closer. Valverde experiment could have really burned them bad if there was a team in the division who could match up with them (Cleveland just doesn't have the pitching). The name I have heard the most about is Joe Nathan. I didn't see Wilson pitch much but I would be hesitant to bet heavy on him after 13 innings last year, when his last full season featured a 1.47 whip. If the speed/movement are there, though, I'm cool with it. I'd trust him more than Fernando Rodney at this point. Whatever they do, Bruce Rondon is a good plan B. Looks like Smyly will be in the rotation next year. Either Scherzer or Porcello will be traded. Gonna need a reliable lefty as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Limited range is an understatement. Like I said, no stat is perfect, especially defensive stats, but you are in the extreme minority in thinking that Cabrera even approaches average. Cabby was a statue after that groin injury. No doubt. I could see him being the worst defender in baseball during that time period. Also, guarantee he led baseball in singles that hit the warning track or OF wall. Might have set the mlb record if that was actually tracked. But I can see how that would be looked at in a different perspective from a saber metrics guy in Oakland versus a Detroit fan. To me -- dude is a hero for playing through that injury and carrying us to the playoffs. I'm more willing to overlook some of the negatives about his season because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crime Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 I'm not a Trout fan in the least and my distaste for the Angles has been well documented here. BUT There was a great article in SI the other week about how Trout should win the MVP. The auther pretty much came up with a formula that factored in both offense and defense that equalled wins for your team and Trout's overall play won the Angles far more games than Cabrera's did for the Tigers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Well given that it is sports reporters who hand out the MVP and Cabby has dominated the voting the last 2 years, the majority of writers think the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 are people already jumping ship with prince? i say he has a better shot at bouncing back than not, given his really high LD% and low HR/FB. the walk rate is a red flag to me, though, with it being the lowest of his career. i wonder how much his divorce impacted him this year. could have been a huge mental black cloud. If the speed/movement are there, though, I'm cool with it. given 2013's small sample size: up 2 mph from 2012, but down 2 mph from 2011 and 4 mph from his peak velocity in 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 There's a little more to the story -- he doesn't have a career postseason RBI (pretty sure, can't cheek on my phone) and was really douchey directly to the fans when they started getting on him this year (things like "fans are going to talk and players play. If they could play, they would." Which while true, is a shitty thing to say to your fans after coming up completely limp in the playoffs 2 years in a row). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 If he turns it around, I'm sure people overlook his comments. It's almost always about production in sports. We may have expected this eventually when that contract was handed out but not in year 2 of 9. Illitch is old as fuck. Probably not gonna own the team that much longer, which means payroll will come back down. Prince refuses to lose weight. Overall -- just a situation we would like to get out of if we could. Not saying we would trade Prince for 2 prospects, a bag of baseballs, and eat the $160 million (or anything along those lines). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catalinacaper Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Bummed that the Braves are letting Hudson go, but glad it's to my second favorite team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Bummed that the Braves are letting Hudson go, but glad it's to my second favorite team. make the giants keep zito and let's bring back mulder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catalinacaper Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 They would probably pitch better than the Giants top 3 last season... On a serious note though.. I don't get it. Hudson was the only veteran on that Braves rotation. Now they have to count on Minor, Teheran and who? Medlen? To hold down the top of the rotation? Alex Wood clearly isn't ready to be an every week guy yet. Maholm is average at best. They have some great prospects in the pipeline but I see them being serious buyers on the pitching market if they think they can compete next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuzzersonKillwell Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Minor, Medlen & Teheran could all be great. There were pretty solid this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 can we talk about how fucked up this whole Braves stadium is? complaining about underfunded schools in cobb county and what do they do? use $9 million a year in property tax (that pays for public schools!) to build a brand new stadium! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catalinacaper Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Minor, Medlen & Teheran could all be great. There were pretty solid this year. Don't get me wrong, I love all three guys I just feel like that rotation needs a veteran presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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