VC - Who are you voting for in the presidential election?

[BBech]

No I want the world to follow a view where killing people is wrong because it is morally reprehensible. Its not a womans issue, a mans issue, its a global issue. You are the one trying to spin it as some big negative thing where I am anti women (yet I work for a rape crisis center). And sadly, I do know woman who got abortions because they personally did not want to get fat (twice, both as late term abortions too). So yeah, I hate to break it to you, there are disgusting woman out there just like there are deadbeat dads. Fact is, making killing illegal isnt playing God.

They do know that just because you rip the baby out you body still thinks its pregnant for quite some time so you still have all the hormones/weight gain.

[selfreliable]

K. Show me.

What sources are good for you? I mean, anyone that has gone through a pregnancy and had pre-natal checkups can back this up as well as the doctors tell you, but here, I hope the Mayo Clinic is good enough for you.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112

Week 6: The neural tube closes

Fetal development four weeks after conception

Growth is rapid this week. Just four weeks after conception, the neural tube along your baby's back is closing and your baby's heart is pumping blood.

Basic facial features will begin to appear, including passageways that will make up the inner ear and arches that will contribute to the jaw. Your baby's body begins to take on a C-shaped curvature. Small buds will soon become arms and legs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1375108/?page=1

I hope the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health is a good enough source for you about the brainwaves starting.

As far as Mike goes, I argue they are not just "pieces of body tissue" as they have a functioning heart and brain at that point. And isnt that the point of voting, making sure you elect someone that you want to impose the laws and rules of society that you agree with?

[selfreliable]

can you show me, or any of us, stats that women use abortion as a "gimmie"? I think that it is incredibly insensitive and rude beyond all get out that you just assume that women who are getting abortions are doing it just for the hell of it. in fact, fuck you dude. fuck you hard. im glad you did a great job raising your son, but guess what, not everyone is as fortunate as you are, or as stand up of a great guy like you.

I never said all woman who get abortions are for that reason, I said I personally know of 2 abortions done by the same person for that reason. I think it is incredibly rude as all get out that you take to personally swearing at me because I have a separate belief then you. In fact, the only one who hasnt sworn at me is the lady here, (though she has insinuated that I would keep her in the kitchen). Just because someone doesnt agree with you doesnt mean you get to curse them out and you are higher and mightier than you. Christ, no one has any decent morals anymore. Which I guess goes back to the sociopath who got the abortion twice for that reason. Also, what kind of study would show you those facts? Especially with the social desirability aspect that would come up within such a study how would you design a study that would prove exactly what you are looking for?

[collectivemike]

As far as Mike goes, I argue they are not just "pieces of body tissue" as they have a functioning heart and brain at that point. And isnt that the point of voting, making sure you elect someone that you want to impose the laws and rules of society that you agree with?

You can argue that, but that means you're giving that little clump of cells more rights than the living, breathing, talking, in-the-world woman that's birthing it. And no, voting shouldn't restrict anyone's rights. Politicians shouldn't impose their will (ESPECIALLY if it's grounded in religion) on the people they are supposed to be representing. Religion has no place in public policy.

[selfreliable]

Im not giving them more rights, I am giving them EQUAL rights to the mother birthing them. Also, this isnt grounded in religion to me, its grounded in ethics and morals as I am not religious at all.

And Mike, what about Irene Vilar. She had 15 abortions in 17 years to get back at her controlling husband. She stopped taking the pill strictly to get pregnant and exert control over him, and then would get abortions. She then got "addicted" to getting abortions and kept doing it.

[onlettingjoe]

And no, voting shouldn't restrict anyone's rights. Politicians shouldn't impose their will (ESPECIALLY if it's grounded in religion) on the people they are supposed to be representing. Religion has no place in public policy.

religion shouldnt be a political talking point at all. most social issues shouldn't, in my opinion. but abortion will remain a political topic as long as its being funded by the federal government and tax payers money.

[sjb2k1]

if you are looking for people who "abuse the system" you're going to find that in any system.

[selfreliable]

Yes you will find abusers like that, but I just pointed it out because Mike got bent out of shape that I said it happens.

[dreamover]

Taking away women's right to abortion and saying "fuck you, it was your dumb decision to get pregnant" and making them live with a kid and giving that kid a shitty life is not a very good punishment. there's studies that show those unwanted kids are the ones who grow up to get more abortions and kill people and deal drugs.

But just because your or my morals tell us we wouldn't want our girl to have an abortion doesn't mean we should force that belief on people who don't have the same values and will end up taking it out on their kid in the future.

It doesn't make sense to say "NO ABORTIONS" and "NO WELFARE". The republicans want too bad to have all these unwanted babies born and then don't want to fund any programs to give them a halfway decent life. MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE.

I was against abortion for a long time when I was younger and easily influenced. But now I was looking at it in the small window of my life and the people I knew. If they outlawed abortion for my white suburban community, it'd probably be fine cause those few girls that shouldn't be having babies would probably be taken care of by their parents. I also realized I've yet to meet a woman who is about to have sex and says, "don't wear a condom, i don't like how that feels. i prefer getting an abortion". Where republicans get this idea that women use abortion as birth control is beyond me. The few women I know that have had abortions would never want to go through that experience again and didn't think it was worth ruining both their lives for.

[selfreliable]

At what point is aborting a fetus no longer ok in your eyes people? Can one be aborted at 34 weeks? what about 30? 25 weeks? Where is the magical line in the sand that you draw where you say it is no longer a sack of tissue cells, only when it is birthed?

[dreamover]

At what point is aborting a fetus no longer ok in your eyes people? Can one be aborted at 34 weeks? what about 30? 25 weeks? Where is the magical line in the sand that you draw where you say it is no longer a sack of tissue cells, only when it is birthed?

Don't you get it? Make the decision in your own life. It shouldn't be the government's decision. Personally, if I was pregnant (pretty much impossible cause I'm a dude), I wouldn't get an abortion for moral reasons, but I can't tell Lisa in Kentucky she shouldn't get one as a blanket statement.

Parents slowly kill their kids with Mountain Dew and second hand smoke. Should we make that illegal too? You might say yes, but it's really not that simple.

[selfreliable]

It doesn't make sense to say "NO ABORTIONS" and "NO WELFARE". The republicans want too bad to have all these unwanted babies born and then don't want to fund any programs to give them a halfway decent life. MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE.

Good point, it makes no sense at all to say that. In fact the government (I believe it was FDR but might have been after) said that they are responsible for the economic welfare of its people and when the people can not support themselves via working in the economy then the government will step in and help them. Why they think now, when the economy is shit, is the time to pretend its not governments job is beyond me.

[collectivemike]

Im not giving them more rights, I am giving them EQUAL rights to the mother birthing them. Also, this isnt grounded in religion to me, its grounded in ethics and morals as I am not religious at all.

And Mike, what about Irene Vilar. She had 15 abortions in 17 years to get back at her controlling husband. She stopped taking the pill strictly to get pregnant and exert control over him, and then would get abortions. She then got "addicted" to getting abortions and kept doing it.

I get that, but in general, the pro-life movement is grounded in religion. I will never understand your logic of giving a fetus equal rights to the woman that's got it inside her. It's a piece of the mother, and she has the right to do with that what she wants. It's a medical procedure, and nothing more. We're not going to make ground either way on this one I don't think. Where is the line you would draw in cases of rape/death to the mother? Who gets the right to live, the group of cells or the mother?

And in regards to Irene, that's an anecdotal example. To use that as your evidence of why abortions should be illegal is silly - you can give me one example of a woman abusing the system, I can show you millions where that hasn't happened. That's the same kind of "$16 muffin" empty rhetoric that clouds the political process. People use anecdotal evidence like that when they don't have good reasons to back up what they're arguing.

Not sure where I got "bent out of shape."

religion shouldnt be a political talking point at all. most social issues shouldn't, in my opinion. but abortion will remain a political topic as long as its being funded by the federal government and tax payers money.

I agree. But yeah, I know things won't change anytime soon as long as it's federally funded.

[sjb2k1]

"Why they think now, when the economy is shit, is the time to pretend its not governments job is beyond me."

because it's seen as lazy people taking handouts

[dreamover]

Also, abortion is a bullshit topic to the republicans. The fact that it's even a debate in this day in age just shows how behind our country really is. Republicans use abortion as a reason to appeal to the middle-income Christian voter. They've been using issues like abortion and gay marriage to trick them into thinking "I'm a Christian, and these issues are what God wants me to vote for", in turn voting against their best interests. Without those voters, the Republicans don't have a chance.

[One Hundred Fifty-Two]

Why are we arguing about abortion? If you don't believe in abortion don't get one?

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Yes you will find abusers like that, but I just pointed it out because Mike got bent out of shape that I said it happens.

where did I ever deny that people abuse the system? I dont disagree there are people who abuse the system, but just because some do doesnt mean all should not be granted the right to control of their own body. I started bringing this all up because someone didnt understand how Romney is against womens rights, and guess what, if Romney gets elected, women will LOSE THEIR RIGHT to their own body. It wont be a matter of if the man and woman discuss it and decide to not have it because IT WILL NOT BE AN OPTION AT ALL. Whether its "moral" to have an abortion or not, is it "moral" to bring a child into an unstable or unhealthy "family"?

[selfreliable]

Don't you get it? Make the decision in your own life. It shouldn't be the government's decision. Personally, if I was pregnant (pretty much impossible cause I'm a dude), I wouldn't get an abortion for moral reasons, but I can't tell Lisa in Kentucky she shouldn't get one as a blanket statement.

Parents slowly kill their kids with Mountain Dew and second hand smoke. Should we make that illegal too? You might say yes, but it's really not that simple.

That is a cop out answer. People say abortions are fine because they arent a person. When do they become a person then? Where is the line? Are you really saying it is up to me to tell when I think someone is a human and when they are not? If we can judge for ourselves when someone is alive, can we judge when we think someone is dead too? Lisa in Kentucky thinks its fine to abort a 28 week fetus, Jill in New York thinks its ok to kill her 10 week old infant because it "doesnt have free will or thought". Where is this magical line drawn so murder is murder and abortion is just a (overly simple term of how it is done) scraping out of tissue cells? Can I kill my grandfather because all he does is lay in bed hooked to a respirator and isnt conscious of what is going on around him after his stroke?

And yes, I would say smoking and soda should be outlawed but I doubt I will live to see soda outlawed. Hopefully cigarettes will be outlawed before I die but they are both too powerful of lobbyists to have it happen anytime soon.

[collectivemike]

Why are we arguing about abortion? If you don't believe in abortion don't get one?

That would be the logical decision, but since people aren't logical... here we are.

[dreamover]

Why are we arguing about abortion? If you don't believe in abortion don't get one?

Because, to help people forget that they are not in control of their own lives, they need to try to control other people's lives.

[sjb2k1]

okay this is where the terminology is important

Jill in New York thinks its ok to kill her 10 week old infant because it "doesnt have free will or thought".

because this is actually infanticide

[collectivemike]

At what point is aborting a fetus no longer ok in your eyes people? Can one be aborted at 34 weeks? what about 30? 25 weeks? Where is the magical line in the sand that you draw where you say it is no longer a sack of tissue cells, only when it is birthed?

Where does it become a person?

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

okay this is where the terminology is important

Jill in New York thinks its ok to kill her 10 week old infant because it "doesnt have free will or thought".

because this is actually infanticide

i was just about to say that.

if you have power of attorney, you can kill your grandfather off if all he's doing is nothing on a respirator.

[selfreliable]

I get that, but in general, the pro-life movement is grounded in religion. I will never understand your logic of giving a fetus equal rights to the woman that's got it inside her. It's a piece of the mother, and she has the right to do with that what she wants. It's a medical procedure, and nothing more. We're not going to make ground either way on this one I don't think. Where is the line you would draw in cases of rape/death to the mother? Who gets the right to live, the group of cells or the mother?

And in regards to Irene, that's an anecdotal example. To use that as your evidence of why abortions should be illegal is silly - you can give me one example of a woman abusing the system, I can show you millions where that hasn't happened. That's the same kind of "$16 muffin" empty rhetoric that clouds the political process. People use anecdotal evidence like that when they don't have good reasons to back up what they're arguing.

Not sure where I got "bent out of shape."

I agree. But yeah, I know things won't change anytime soon as long as it's federally funded.

Sorry man, I meant Mike T, I didnt realize you were mike too, I think of you as Collective Confusion Dude. And yes, Irene is anecdotal, but Mike T said give him one case of it happening, so I did.

As far as when would rape/death come into play, I honestly dont know, and that is why I know abortion will never will be banned. How do you draw the line of who is raped enough (the girl who got pregnant when she drank at a frat party vs the random stranger rape) or even begin to prove they were raped. When is death come into play of it being severe enough for the mother to die and not have the child be stable to live on its own? As far as it being a piece of the mother, I dont believe that. I believe it is a human being that is using a host to survive. If you (crude and graphic simplified example) have a tapeworm that you shit out, is it part of you that came out or is it another species? Fetus' have brains that work and hearts that beat just like tape worms (I assume that they have hearts and brains, I could be wrong about the worm).

[dreamover]

That is a cop out answer. People say abortions are fine because they arent a person. When do they become a person then? Where is the line? Are you really saying it is up to me to tell when I think someone is a human and when they are not? If we can judge for ourselves when someone is alive, can we judge when we think someone is dead too? Lisa in Kentucky thinks its fine to abort a 28 week fetus, Jill in New York thinks its ok to kill her 10 week old infant because it "doesnt have free will or thought". Where is this magical line drawn so murder is murder and abortion is just a (overly simple term of how it is done) scraping out of tissue cells? Can I kill my grandfather because all he does is lay in bed hooked to a respirator and isnt conscious of what is going on around him after his stroke?

If you're asking me personally, I think the decision needs to be made earlier than later, but there needs to be funding for planned parenthood and education programs, so women know what their options are. There are low income areas where girls don't have support and knowledge. I worked at a bank where we had a Catholic organization that made deposits of donations everyday that called themselves "The Women's Center". I think they did some great things: giving girls free ultrasounds, helping them get connected with adoption agencies. The problem is they talk these girls into having a baby and once they do, they're gone.

The debate right now isn't for when abortion is considered murder. It's that Romney changed his stance to completely wanting it outlawed and to cut all funding from planned parenthood and make it harder to get birth control. All this does is create more situations where women will try to abort it themselves. That is not the answer.