Ferguson, and other issues

[albert]

According to the BBC tonight the reason for not indicting the officer was because the grand jury could not find "malicious intent." I would love to know the true legal definition or law that explains "malicious intent."  

 

 

As far as I am concerned: a man being choked to death for selling loose cigarettes is malicious and at the very least deserves a trial.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

According to the BBC tonight the reason for not indicting the officer was because the grand jury could not find "malicious intent." I would love to know the true legal definition or law that explains "malicious intent."  

 

 

As far as I am concerned: a man being choked to death for selling loose cigarettes is malicious and at the very least deserves a trial.

Ah, they must not have had manslaughter as an option then, just murder?

No malicious intent aforethought necessary for manslaughter as far as I understand it, but it is necessary for murder charges.

[rooks]

Could have bee negligent homicide uo to second degree manslaughter I believe. Dont think murder was even an option from what I read.

[aflycon]

That's murder. Cops shouldn't ever hear the words "manslaughter," "negligent homicide," any of that shit in court. If a cop kills someone who was not an immediate threat of harm to them or others, that's fucking murder. There's no two ways about that.

[albert]

There also is the issue in both Ferguson and new york of the officers report or statement carrying more weight than really any other parties involved. Truth is truth no matter where it comes from. A police officer should not be valued higher than a civilian in a court of law. But from what I can understand that is exactly what happens in these specific Grand Jury cases.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

That's murder. Cops shouldn't ever hear the words "manslaughter," "negligent homicide," any of that shit in court. If a cop kills someone who was not an immediate threat of harm to them or others, that's fucking murder. There's no two ways about that.

Well...no. By definition it isn't murder, as murder involves planning, or intent to kill with malice. If the DA shared your opinion and that is all he pushed for, I can see how there was no indictment.

[aflycon]

Well...no. By definition it isn't murder, as murder involves planning, or intent to kill with malice. If the DA shared your opinion and that is all he pushed for, I can see how there was no indictment.

 

I get what you're saying, but the point I was trying to make is that when a cop kills somebody (edit: in a case like this), it's obviously not third-degree murder or involuntary manslaughter, or negligent homicide, or any of that shit. Every case you could present to me is a case of second-degree murder if the victim was not posing a threat to the officer. 

 

I bolded "intent to kill with malice" because that's a defining characteristic of second-degree murder. 

[Valeriano]

Well...no. By definition it isn't murder, as murder involves planning, or intent to kill with malice. If the DA shared your opinion and that is all he pushed for, I can see how there was no indictment.

 

Exactly, the problem is that many people base their own judgements on their emotional responses. Whereas in court things are handled in a much different manner (or should be), basing judgement on evidence, intent, If there was probable cause for the officers actions (I believe excessive force was obviously used). In this case, I am surprised there was no indictment (Obviously not murder, I'm curious as to what charges they went for). I would like to see how similar cases have been handled involving civilians, and other cops as well. The family is suing for wrongful death, so hopefully some justice may be served in regard to this case.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Justice department is investigating now

[Team Avatar]

Here is something one of my friends posted, which helps explain why all cops are bad cops and why the argument "not all cops" is not a good one.

 

For those of you who STILL feel the need to defend cops: This is not about a few bad cops who chose to do the wrong thing. There is absolutely no utility in the "not all cops are bad" argument. Someone can be a perfectly good, decent, upstanding person outside of work. The fact of the matter is that when they put on their badge and uniform, they are consciously choosing to cooperate with a system based in SYSTEMIC OPPRESSION AND RACISM. There is no justification for this based on character or otherwise. This is not a personal attack on individual cops, but rather a criticism of the system as a whole. The system is defunct. Anyone who participates in it (whether it be your mom, dad, uncle, brother etc.) is bad, end of story. This shit has got to stop. They have gotten away with (actual) murder for too long. (P.S. White privilege is still really real in 2014. Acknowledge that before you start your cop loving. Maybe if they were picking off members of your community one by one you'd feel differently. Alleged black panther members are being arrested and smeared in the media and yet the news won't report on the KKK threatening to kill protesters, marching the streets, and recruiting. FUCK. Fuck this system and fuck the police.)

[abovetheearth]

Anyone who participates in it (whether it be your mom, dad, uncle, brother etc.) is bad, end of story.

[Family Friendly Rap God]

#crimingwhilewhite

Still don't think "white privilege" exists?

[Aych]

Words can't even come close to expressing how disappointed I am with this grand jury decision.

 

Fuck, man.

[stl_ben]

I found a bad apple.....ahhhhh all apples are bad. Fuck it burn the orchid down!

[Family Friendly Rap God]

I found a bad apple.....ahhhhh all apples are bad. Fuck it burn the orchid down!

Not at all, but you don't rejoice over bad apples to do you?

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

Here is something one of my friends posted, which helps explain why all cops are bad cops and why the argument "not all cops" is not a good one.

 

For those of you who STILL feel the need to defend cops: This is not about a few bad cops who chose to do the wrong thing. There is absolutely no utility in the "not all cops are bad" argument. Someone can be a perfectly good, decent, upstanding person outside of work. The fact of the matter is that when they put on their badge and uniform, they are consciously choosing to cooperate with a system based in SYSTEMIC OPPRESSION AND RACISM. There is no justification for this based on character or otherwise. This is not a personal attack on individual cops, but rather a criticism of the system as a whole. The system is defunct. Anyone who participates in it (whether it be your mom, dad, uncle, brother etc.) is bad, end of story. This shit has got to stop. They have gotten away with (actual) murder for too long. (P.S. White privilege is still really real in 2014. Acknowledge that before you start your cop loving. Maybe if they were picking off members of your community one by one you'd feel differently. Alleged black panther members are being arrested and smeared in the media and yet the news won't report on the KKK threatening to kill protesters, marching the streets, and recruiting. FUCK. Fuck this system and fuck the police.)

So what you're saying is that you'd like all these "good people, bad cops" to quit the force and just leave a bunch of jack-booted thugs running the show?

Or would you rather the entire system collapse, to be built up again (which would take years, resulting in anarchy, living in a situation similar to third world countries where the strong rule the weak with no one to stop them, or an actual military police force)?

 

That's why you can't say all cops are bad. The good cops have to work within the system to try to change it, otherwise, people like you, who I assume, don't own a gun or know how to defend themselves in a violent situation (it may be a poor assumption, but I'm making it all the same) get culled from the population by those who decide to take what they can, because they can.

 

Nobody loves cops here.

[albert]

For those of you...The system is defunct. Anyone who participates in it (whether it be your mom, dad, uncle, brother etc.) is bad, end of story. This shit has got to stop. They have gotten away with (actual) murder for too long. (P.S. White privilege is still really real in 2014. Acknowledge that before you start your cop loving. Maybe if they were picking off members of your community one by one you'd feel differently. Alleged black panther members are being arrested and smeared in the media and yet the news won't report on the KKK threatening to kill protesters, marching the streets, and recruiting. FUCK. Fuck this system and fuck the police.)

 

How old is your friend. I suspect 17 or younger.

 

 

My favorite part though is: 

 

(P.S. White privilege is still really real in 2014. 

 

 

 

The P.S. is such a subtle precursor to "really real in 2014".

[Family Friendly Rap God]

This guy has to be trolling

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152943665483417&id=271424728416&fs=5

[Valeriano]

My favorite part is

 

This is not a personal attack on individual cops, but rather a criticism of the system as a whole.

 

followed by

 

Anyone who participates in it (whether it be your mom, dad, uncle, brother etc.) is bad, end of story.

 

 

... I think it'd feel a little personal if I were a cop haha.

[Team Avatar]

She's 22 and a law grad student... not that it matters.

 

 

 

So what you're saying is that you'd like all these "good people, bad cops" to quit the force and just leave a bunch of jack-booted thugs running the show?

Or would you rather the entire system collapse, to be built up again (which would take years, resulting in anarchy, living in a situation similar to third world countries where the strong rule the weak with no one to stop them, or an actual military police force)?

 

That's why you can't say all cops are bad. The good cops have to work within the system to try to change it, otherwise, people like you, who I assume, don't own a gun or know how to defend themselves in a violent situation (it may be a poor assumption, but I'm making it all the same) get culled from the population by those who decide to take what they can, because they can.

 

Nobody loves cops here.

 

The change obviously has to come from the police force, because the whole anarchy thing you depicted in the beginning is also really bad and would probably never happen.  I'm not going to pretend to say what needs to happen because I honestly don't know, but change HAS to happen and if cops don't start fighting against the system they work for, it'll keep happening over and over again.

 

Where are the indictments?

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

She's 22 and a law grad student... not that it matters.

The change obviously has to come from the police force, because the whole anarchy thing you depicted in the beginning is also really bad and would probably never happen. I'm not going to pretend to say what needs to happen because I honestly don't know, but change HAS to happen and if cops don't start fighting against the system they work for, it'll keep happening over and over again.

Where are the indictments?

There being no indictments is NOT the fault of the police, that's on US as the populus. You know, the ones who were on the grand jury, making the decisions?

It's not like a police officer can be like, "nah you guys, ignore what a jury just said, there is totally enough evidence, you should indict this other cop. He's a dick."

It's up to us to make the change. The police trying their best on the inside to make change will be the ones who get killed when other cops don't respond as backup. They'll be the ones who get shot in the back in a bad situation, they'll be the ones who blow the whistle and get fired over it.

You need to educate yourself before you start copy and pasting things other people say. Don't let other people put words in your mouth. Don't spout off about things before you think about what you're saying.

Police reform is a complex situation, and while unlikely, the anarchy I described IS what will happen if the system collapses without the support good people doing good work. Instead of saying ACAB, maybe think for a minute about what it would be like were that true. The next time you got pulled over, maybe they'd rape your girlfriend, maybe they'd shoot you.

Look, I don't love cops, I don't even trust them. I even avoid them when I can. I also know there ARE good people out there wearing the badge though, just fighting the good fight.

I was 23 once too, heck, I'm not much older than that now. I know you're just trying to stand up for your (our, everyone's) rights and what is right, but you need to really think before you jump on the cop hating bandwagon.

Anyway, I can't handle this thread anymore and I know I'll probably get a lot of hate over this post.

Just keep it real. Don't trust cops, but remember they aren't all assholes.

[Team Avatar]

The grand jury is 12-23 citizens.  Not a representation of the US population.  This isn't really what the argument is though.

 

It's up to us to make the change. The police trying their best on the inside to make change will be the ones who get killed when other cops don't respond as backup. They'll be the ones who get shot in the back in a bad situation, they'll be the ones who blow the whistle and get fired over it.

 

Are you saying that the good cops are shutting their mouths so they don't get fucked over by the bad cops?  Because that MAKES you a bad cop.  Maybe you would whistle blow and lose you job.  Maybe you'd make a difference.  It's obviously a tricky position but if you are consciously sitting back and watching fellow cops shoot other people so you don't lose your job, it doesn't matter.  You're hurting the system and hurting the people you are so called "protecting".

 

 

You "older" people who think that hashtags can't make a difference and that us young folk who are out there, protesting, doing whatever we can to let our voices be heard, speaking up when everyone else is silent, are just "uneducated" are NOT helping the cause.   But I guess you know that.  Most people on this forum seem to think that.

[Valeriano]

Here is something one of my friends posted, which helps explain why all cops are bad cops and why the argument "not all cops" is not a good one.

 

For those of you who STILL feel the need to defend cops: This is not about a few bad cops who chose to do the wrong thing. There is absolutely no utility in the "not all cops are bad" argument. Someone can be a perfectly good, decent, upstanding person outside of work. The fact of the matter is that when they put on their badge and uniform, they are consciously choosing to cooperate with a system based in SYSTEMIC OPPRESSION AND RACISM. There is no justification for this based on character or otherwise. This is not a personal attack on individual cops, but rather a criticism of the system as a whole. The system is defunct. Anyone who participates in it (whether it be your mom, dad, uncle, brother etc.) is bad, end of story. This shit has got to stop. They have gotten away with (actual) murder for too long. (P.S. White privilege is still really real in 2014. Acknowledge that before you start your cop loving. Maybe if they were picking off members of your community one by one you'd feel differently. Alleged black panther members are being arrested and smeared in the media and yet the news won't report on the KKK threatening to kill protesters, marching the streets, and recruiting. FUCK. Fuck this system and fuck the police.)

 

I don't mean to be offensive but that is one of the most willfully ignorant comments I have seen on the matter. I appreciate your friend’s passion for the change that needs to be made within this system (I agree completely), however, there is nothing constructive in the entire post she made. If one thing is for sure, it is that there is no black and white in the world, everything is grey because everything and everyone are flawed independent thinking individuals. You do realize that your friends comments are just as closed minded and bigoted as the police that she is attempting to speak out against don't you? A little ironic...

 

As I stated above, there are flaws in everything and everyone. This holds true in the police force. I have personally been assaulted by police when one of my brother was stabbed by a guy, they literally kicked the door in, guns drawn, pistol whipped and threw everyone including my brother who was bleeding fairly seriously on the ground before saying a word to anyone other than shouting "Get on the F-ing ground" repeatedly. I have had numerous instances of negative encounters with police officers especially when I was younger. However, I have also seen cops that have done some pretty great things as well. My other brother is a MP in the Marines currently on tour in the Middle East. Prior to that he was in San Diego where his job was basically that of a police officer responding to calls and whatnot. He would be the first to tell you there are shit cops. One call he responded to was for a guy that had a gun at a golf course sitting in one of the sand bunkers about to shoot himself in the head and my brother stayed there and talked with him for trying to convince him to not to, however, the guy ended up shooting himself in the head 2 feet away from my brother. I have never been a huge police supporter, and my personal experiences with them have been admittedly overwhelmingly negative (probably 80%). However, after hearing some of the stories I have a better appreciation of the type of things that one goes through.

 

I don't know your friend at all. For all I know her experiences with law enforcement have been 1,000,000% worse than that of my own. And I can understand her frustration. However, the fact of the matter is that your friend generalizing and judging a group of people just because they all hold the same occupation makes her no better than a police officer or anyone else that acts the same way toward any other group of people.

[Team Avatar]

How does arguing that "not all cops are bad" at all help the cause?  All it does is detract from the issue that people are being murdered and the cops are getting away with it.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

The grand jury is 12-23 citizens. Not a representation of the US population. This isn't really what the argument is though.

Are you saying that the good cops are shutting their mouths so they don't get fucked over by the bad cops? Because that MAKES you a bad cop. Maybe you would whistle blow and lose you job. Maybe you'd make a difference. It's obviously a tricky position but if you are consciously sitting back and watching fellow cops shoot other people so you don't lose your job, it doesn't matter. You're hurting the system and hurting the people you are so called "protecting".

You "older" people who think that hashtags can't make a difference and that us young folk who are out there, protesting, doing whatever we can to let our voices be heard, speaking up when everyone else is silent, are just "uneducated" are NOT helping the cause. But I guess you know that. Most people on this forum seem to think that.

I don't see a problem with hashtags and protests, they're a good start, the issue I have is with riots and looting masquerading as protests, and the lack of follow through.

There is a difference between rioting, and violent, targeted protest.

Nobody is saying that these cops are just sitting back watching their fellow officers kill people. I'm sure it has happened, but these "good cops" I'm talking about aren't the sort who would stand for something like that. You do know that police corruption is more than just cops killing people, right? That is the most egregious thing happening, but often it's one officer involved, possibly two, and often that second officer is not present when the event occurs, so they didn't witness it.

Here's the thing;

You have a problem with cops, you think all cops are bastards? What is going to change things, hurting local business and other private citizens, or putting your life/freedom on the line going against the establishment you're trying to fight?

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. People need to think about what they say/do when they claim to be activists.

All these assholes burning down businesses, don't you think a bigger effect would come from burning down the police headquarters?

I'm not saying that claiming that all cops aren't assholes is going to change anything. I'm saying that you need to know that they aren't all assholes. There are men and women out there trying to do the right thing and blow the whistle, and that in the past terrible things have happened to them, so they need to be careful.

Keeping perspective is a big part of being an adult, and that is something lacking in this country today.

Part of that perspective is knowing when, why and where to speak out.

People making this a racial issue have muddied the water in what should have been a wake up call to the corruption inherent in the system.

People saying all cops are bastards are making it more complicated.

People protesting incorrectly are turning people against their cause.

If the riots had been centered directly around the police, this would have drawn better attention than what happened did, but more civilians would have been injured, killed, and arrested. That would have drawn MORE attention to the issue on its own.

That is why people get down on "hashtivim" or whatever you want to call it. Because it's mostly a bunch of overpriveleged, underinformed people who feel safe typing from home, but, and excuse the cliches, when the rubber hits the road, when the fire starts to heat up, they don't follow through with the next step, which is ACTUAL activism.