Ferguson, and other issues

[Guest]

back to tamir rice for a moment

 

http://gawker.com/the-cop-who-killed-tamir-rice-was-found-unfit-for-polic-1666341124?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[aflycon]

I found a bad apple.....ahhhhh all apples are bad. Fuck it burn the orchid down!

 

Are you a cop or something? No offense to you personally, but you're very defensive of a system that is pretty obviously broken.

 

I think the reality is converse: "I've found a good apple... are there more good apples? The evidence says no, so let's burn down the orchard."

 

Or would you rather the entire system collapse, to be built up again (which would take years, resulting in anarchy, living in a situation similar to third world countries where the strong rule the weak with no one to stop them, or an actual military police force)?

 

That's why you can't say all cops are bad. The good cops have to work within the system to try to change it, otherwise, people like you, who I assume, don't own a gun or know how to defend themselves in a violent situation (it may be a poor assumption, but I'm making it all the same) get culled from the population by those who decide to take what they can, because they can.

 

Nobody loves cops here.

I have to disagree. The system could realistically be restructured without having to totally collapse, or without the institution of a "military police force" (we already have that). The standards for "protecting and serving" should be much fucking higher - if you're a piece of shit, you can't be a cop. Most of them shouldn't even be armed, 'cause they just kill people for sport when they are. So, you can weed out the bad (read: all) cops and rebuild the system without years of downtime, anarchy, any of that shit. Considering the size of our government, it could be done in weeks. 

 

Re: "The good cops have to work within the system to try and change it:" This doesn't work. I point again to Frank Serpico, a "good cop" who was set up by his fellow "officers of the law" to be murdered after he blew the whistle. Or take the CRASH scandal, which carried on despite "good cops" knowing about it because they'd be killed if they told anyone. No amount of "good cops" can change the system - change has to come from the outside.

 

And plenty of people love the police. Those people just aren't very smart. 

[thebiglebowski]

How does arguing that "not all cops are bad" at all help the cause? All it does is detract from the issue that people are being murdered and the cops are getting away with it.

No one saying the argument is being brought up to further the cause of racial equality. They are saying it because it's just the plain truth and a web shouldn't be spun to further a cause.

Lawyers participate in the same system the cops do. Maybe you shouldn't tell your friend she is inherently part of the problem and should drop out of law school.

[stl_ben]

How does arguing that "not all cops are bad" at all help the cause?  All it does is detract from the issue that people are being murdered and the cops are getting away with it.

how does arguing all cops are bad help the situation. How is some random cop in peaceful small town usa suppose to stop a random cop across the country from using excessive force?! I agree things should change....but that needs to come from the law makers.....change the laws then weed out the problem officers. Don't fire Barney Fife just because he wears a badge....

And whoever asked, no I'm not a cop.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

The grand jury is 12-23 citizens.  Not a representation of the US population.  This isn't really what the argument is though.

 

 

Are you saying that the good cops are shutting their mouths so they don't get fucked over by the bad cops?  Because that MAKES you a bad cop.  Maybe you would whistle blow and lose you job.  Maybe you'd make a difference.  It's obviously a tricky position but if you are consciously sitting back and watching fellow cops shoot other people so you don't lose your job, it doesn't matter.  You're hurting the system and hurting the people you are so called "protecting".

 

 

You "older" people who think that hashtags can't make a difference and that us young folk who are out there, protesting, doing whatever we can to let our voices be heard, speaking up when everyone else is silent, are just "uneducated" are NOT helping the cause.   But I guess you know that.  Most people on this forum seem to think that.

 

Grand Jury's are a representation of the population they're formed within, not of the whole country.  Of course they're not a representation of the US population, no one said that, you just took what was said and interpreted it that way.

 

I dont judge all cops based on the actions of some.  I also dont make assumptions that just because I cant SEE the good cops trying to make change, that all cops are the problem.  But I guess im "old" and I just "dont get it".

[rooks]

For the first time in my life I agree with Stl_ben. Anyone who says the problem is all cops is willfully ignorant and inflammatory. If you want to run around saying "fuck the police!" because it speaks to your anti-authority attitude you're doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire.

Don't be fucking stupid. The three cases we are mainly discussing have been horrendous, for the most part, and there has been a lot of news coverage, but as Ben said, how can you judge thousands of cops based on on the actions of three? What the fuck?

Are all men rapists? Are we all murderers? Is everyone on the planet guilty of everything that all the psychos and assholes and mentally ill people have done?

Pull your head out of your ass, calm down and think rationally, instead of accusing and self-convicting every cop you don't know.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

amen.

[Family Friendly Rap God]

Well said rooks

[jhulud]

Reading all the reactions and comments on here so far and looking at what is being broadcasted by news and reactions all across the 'net, all I have gathered is that this #CrimingWhileWhite trend now is fuckin' dumb. It may be shedding some light on the real White Privilege encountered by a few, but now all it's doing is making people make up shit to just tweet and FB post to get on some bandwagon now.

 

Maybe I'm completely off-base and wrong then since I'm Latino and totally different minority that has also seen plenty of racism and prejudice on different levels. Or not.

[jhook]

What the hell does #Crimingwhilewhite mean? Is it as cool as #stoptheparade?

[Family Friendly Rap God]

What the hell does #Crimingwhilewhite mean? Is it as cool as #stoptheparade?

White people talking about the petty shit that they got away with because they were white. The same stuff minorities are being arrested and killed over.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

I want to say one last thing before I try to leave this thread for a while, because I don't want it to be taken away from this that I endorse violence against anyone.

 

If everyone is so worried about there being "no good cops," why don't you:

1) Stop going to art school/business school/whatever bullshit you've decided is your dream.

2) Become one of the good cops and make the change everyone is talking about from the inside.

 

I'll tell you why, and this is the difference between hashtivists and activists again, you're not dedicated enough. You won't give up the cozy life you have, for a life you don't necessarily want in order to make change.

It's become somewhat trite in this day, but as Mahatma Gandhi said, "Be the change you that you wish to see in the world."

If this is your thing, embrace it fully and work toward that change, if not, you're just another person muddying the waters of this issue.

[jhook]

^^ YUP ^^

[noalarmplanet]

I want to say one last thing before I try to leave this thread for a while, because I don't want it to be taken away from this that I endorse violence against anyone.

 

If everyone is so worried about there being "no good cops," why don't you:

1) Stop going to art school/business school/whatever bullshit you've decided is your dream.

2) Become one of the good cops and make the change everyone is talking about from the inside.

 

I'll tell you why, and this is the difference between hashtivists and activists again, you're not dedicated enough. You won't give up the cozy life you have, for a life you don't necessarily want in order to make change.

It's become somewhat trite in this day, but as Mahatma Gandhi said, "Be the change you that you wish to see in the world."

If this is your thing, embrace it fully and work toward that change, if not, you're just another person muddying the waters of this issue.

I agree with you but isn't there an in between? Being and Hashtivist or SJW seems to be nothing but complaining, but actually risking your life and marching for something is at the very least a risk. I mean we all at the very least seem to agree on what the problem is, but is having a bunch of people quit their jobs and join the police academy the answer? Wouldn't pushing congress and the president and local officials and whoever else to make the changes needed to make sure that policing changes happen and are the right ones?

 

Good cops/bad cops doesn't matter as much as overhauling both police policy and the justice system. I mean maybe nothing can change. Perhaps as a country we are already fucked. Either way your right about "be the change", I just don't know that it is as simple as be a cop or you are the problem, but I could be wrong.

 

Oh and the article about the kid who got shot and the cop being unfit for duty. Maddening. Infuriating. 

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

I agree with you but isn't there an in between? Being and Hashtivist or SJW seems to be nothing but complaining, but actually risking your life and marching for something is at the very least a risk. I mean we all at the very least seem to agree on what the problem is, but is having a bunch of people quit their jobs and join the police academy the answer? Wouldn't pushing congress and the president and local officials and whoever else to make the changes needed to make sure that policing changes happen and are the right ones?

 

Good cops/bad cops doesn't matter as much as overhauling both police policy and the justice system. I mean maybe nothing can change. Perhaps as a country we are already fucked. Either way your right about "be the change", I just don't know that it is as simple as be a cop or you are the problem, but I could be wrong.

 

Oh and the article about the kid who got shot and the cop being unfit for duty. Maddening. Infuriating. 

I'm not saying be a cop or you're the problem, I'm saying actually get out there and do something. Being a good cop is the way the change is going to happen though. 

I suggested marching, risking your life, doing what needs to be done, but the way the "protests" (read riots) have been going are't going to do it.

You've seen in the past few years how much trying to get something changed through the national government work. C'mon. There's as much corruption and laziness there as anywhere.

(I can't seem to stay out of here.)

[albert]

No one saying the argument is being brought up to further the cause of racial equality. They are saying it because it's just the plain truth and a web shouldn't be spun to further a cause.

Lawyers participate in the same system the cops do. Maybe you shouldn't tell your friend she is inherently part of the problem and should drop out of law school.

 

Exactly.

 

 

How does arguing that "not all cops are bad" at all help the cause?  All it does is detract from the issue that people are being murdered and the cops are getting away with it.

 

 

 

It helps the cause because, as with any problem in life, it is best to have all the information present when deciding what the best path towards change is. If you wipe out all cops in America because "they" are all "bad" you WILL have anarchy. I guarantee it. The type of logic that says all cops are bad let us get rid of them all, is akin to a doctor amputating an arm because it is severely sprained. It is better to work as a country towards reforming law and regulation and setting forth a better tomorrow. 

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

 

It helps the cause because, as with any problem in life, it is best to have all the information present when deciding what the best path towards change is. If you wipe out all cops in America because "they" are all "bad" you WILL have anarchy. I guarantee it. The type of logic that says all cops are bad let us get rid of them all, is akin to a doctor amputating an arm because it is severely sprained. It is better to work as a country towards reforming law and regulation and setting forth a better tomorrow. 

 

You said this better than I could articulate. Thank you.

[Team Avatar]

Since everyone keeps bringing it up - I don't think eradicating all cops will solve the problem.  I don't believe in anarchy and think that is terrifying.
 

I also completely agree with this statement from Albert:

It is better to work as a country towards reforming law and regulation and setting forth a better tomorrow.

 

When I argue that all cops are bad, and you suggest "no no there are good cops too" you move the attention from the problem to the people who are doing good, which gets absolutely nothing done.  It's a strawman argument.  Obviously, there are great cops who every day do good. Yet you're practically suggesting "I know good cops, therefore your entire argument is invalid." But cops are a huge part of the problem.  Let's not forget that.  That's all.

[rooks]

No... Arguing that all cops are bad is what is diverting attention. The problem is abuse of power with heavy overtones of of racism. Having arguments about good cops or bad cops is nothing but distracting. We're all human.

[abovetheearth]

 

"All cops are bad"....that is just a ludicrous statement.

 

 

Albert, explain why this doesnt register in your brain?

[Valeriano]

Since everyone keeps bringing it up - I don't think eradicating all cops will solve the problem.  I don't believe in anarchy and think that is terrifying.

 

I also completely agree with this statement from Albert:

It is better to work as a country towards reforming law and regulation and setting forth a better tomorrow.

 

When I argue that all cops are bad, and you suggest "no no there are good cops too" you move the attention from the problem to the people who are doing good, which gets absolutely nothing done.  It's a strawman argument.  Obviously, there are great cops who every day do good. Yet you're practically suggesting "I know good cops, therefore your entire argument is invalid." But cops are a huge part of the problem.  Let's not forget that.  That's all.

 

I think what you're misunderstanding is that someone can be aware that there is a problem within the police force with cops that abuse power, use unnecessary force, or even simply break laws because they feel entitled to and still acknowledge that that not all cops are like that, heck in reality it is the minority. No one is writing off bad cops just because there are good ones out there as well. You posted an extremely strong position claiming "all cops are bad, end of story". When that is so ridiculous that it was hard to even take seriously at first. 

 

You don't make outlandish claims to support causes, all that will do for you is have people take you less seriously. You deal out facts, percentages, show the real information and demand change from that.

[noalarmplanet]

I'm not saying be a cop or you're the problem, I'm saying actually get out there and do something. Being a good cop is the way the change is going to happen though. 

I suggested marching, risking your life, doing what needs to be done, but the way the "protests" (read riots) have been going are't going to do it.

You've seen in the past few years how much trying to get something changed through the national government work. C'mon. There's as much corruption and laziness there as anywhere.

(I can't seem to stay out of here.)

I may have misunderstood. I think we are in agreement. Be the change don't sit from the internet and bitch. The government sucks and I've lost all hope in it. 

[noalarmplanet]

Also aside from the loss of life I find it so sad that parents all over are having to tell their kids that a cop may not have their best interest at heart and that he may be dangerous to them just because that kid is different color. The fact that my parents didn't have to tell me that is proof of some kind of white privilege I am sure. 

 

Sorry to post so much here. The 12 year old kid and really all these deaths just weigh heavy on my heart because it feels so hopeless and sad.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

I may have misunderstood. I think we are in agreement. Be the change don't sit from the internet and bitch. The government sucks and I've lost all hope in it. 

Yeah, I think we're on the same page, just wanted to clarify.

[sacredheart]

If all cops are bad, Id hate to see what this country would be like if all the good cops stopped working. There are plenty of great cops out there doing real things to change the world and make it a better place. But what gets more clicks/viewers "Local cop changing drug enforcement laws" or "Cop accused of murder"?

 

I would absolutely love for Jacob to sit down with a cop who is making a real difference in the world and tell them that all cops are bad because they wear a badge. No one is saying that there are bad cops who abuse the power and act above the law, but dont for a second think that every cop acts that way.