GHOSTDRONES Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Napalm, I think that you missed part of the point with Ren. He wasn't the villain yet. That struggle which you are describing was purposeful. Snoke is using and manipulating Ren. In many ways, Ren wishes he was half the villain that Vader was. The crux of the next movie is how far down that rabbit hole does Ren go. Does he become a villain? Does he pose any threat to Luke? This movie was a lot of setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NapalmBrain Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Napalm, I think that you missed part of the point with Ren. He wasn't the villain yet. That struggle which you are describing was purposeful. Snoke is using and manipulating Ren. In many ways, Ren wishes he was half the villain that Vader was. The crux of the next movie is how far down that rabbit hole does Ren go. Does he become a villain? Does he pose any threat to Luke? This movie was a lot of setup. I felt like the backstory suggested he was responsible for killing off all the jedi before the movie, I realize it was purposeful, it just wasn't believable, his acting made me cringe in each and every scene. I understood the intentions of the movie, I just thought the execution was clunky and forced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daegor Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I thought he personified arrogance, immaturity, rashness, indulgence, and indecisiveness excellently. We're basically looking at Anakin from Ep II/III. Who acted it better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTDRONES Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I felt like the backstory suggested he was responsible for killing off all the jedi before the movie, I realize it was purposeful, it just wasn't believable, his acting made me cringe in each and every scene. I understood the intentions of the movie, I just thought the execution was clunky and forced He was responsible yes, but he may have led people there that did the actual killing. The flashback does not show him do anything except lead people to the Academy. Really the characterization of Ren was probably one aspect of the movie that was the least clunky. For Harrison Ford basically being the lead in the movie, I thought that they did a good job of making the audience care about the 4 new characters (Rey, Finn, Poe, and Ren). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTDRONES Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I thought he personified arrogance, immaturity, rashness, indulgence, and indecisiveness excellently. We're basically looking at Anakin from Ep II/III. Who acted it better? And blind rage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooks Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Yeah, I mean I understand the complaints but we have to work with the universe we are given. We've only ever seen 1 (now 2) up and coming Sith. Darth Maul doesn't count (does he ever?). Anakin and Kylo are perfectly alike. If you wanted to get into the psychobabble of it all I'm sure you could dive into the fact that the dark side is driven by emotion, and the way teens/young adults are when emotion is their driving force. Later-years Darth Vader, and Palpatine have been the only examples we've had of matured Sith. They both tended to operate more like we expect Jedi to operate - emotionless, calm. But, they put their emotion into their use of the force. It's all about channeling the excess emotion. Which means you have to have excess emotion in the first place. Which is why we get temper-tantrum-Kylo and whiny-baby-Anakin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl_ben Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 He's a truly excellent and accomplished voice actor. Yep, He IS the Joker to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooks Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Yep, He IS the Joker to me. Yep. Joker in the animated series and the video games. Skips + lots of voices in Regular Show Couple voices in Adventure Time bunch of voices in Robot Chicken bunch of voices in Metalacolypse bunch of voices in Avatar: The Last Airbender So many more. He's been in more cartoons/animated series/animated movies than I can name. And he's damn good because most of the time it's not one of those "hey I know that voice... isn't that Luke Skywalker??" He literally IS the character he voices. If you've watched a spattering of animated shows/movies over the last 20-30 years you've heard Mark Hamill and didn't know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NapalmBrain Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I liked Finn and Rey and Poe quite a bit, wish they had focused more on the new characters and dialed back the nostalgia references 10% and put it into developing the new characters. The ending also was a little rushed I felt. I realize these are big shoes to fill and my expectations probably never could have been met. You can't convince me Kylo Ren wasn't pure shit though, honestly take out the romance scenes with padme and ill take Anakin over him anyday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl_ben Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 We get it, you had "expectations (that) never could have been met" and didn't like the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTDRONES Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I liked Finn and Rey and Poe quite a bit, wish they had focused more on the new characters and dialed back the nostalgia references 10% and put it into developing the new characters. The ending also was a little rushed I felt. I realize these are big shoes to fill and my expectations probably never could have been met. You can't convince me Kylo Ren wasn't pure shit though, honestly take out the romance scenes with padme and ill take Anakin over him anyday Anakin had the worst written dialog of the entire saga... and Christensen had no chemistry with any of the other actors or actresses. That part all around was an abomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daegor Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 You can't convince me Kylo Ren wasn't pure shit though, honestly take out the romance scenes with padme and ill take Anakin over him anyday This actually blows my mind. The acting/writing level isn't even in the same room. I mean, I could understand an argument saying the Kylo's acting isn't the best, but worse than the Prequels? Nah man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooks Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I always think it's funny when people get mad that they didn't like characters, that were specifically written to not be liked. Complaints against Christensen in Eps 1-3 were warranted because he was a shit actor with 0 chemistry. Driver was fine. His scenes were believable, and done well enough. The rest of it is writing. You're not supposed to like the guy that throws temper tantrums, orders innocent villagers to be slaughtered, and kills his own father and our old friend Han... Do I think he could have kept his helmet on a little more? Sure. But if you're gonna hate on Kylo at least have specifics that can't be tied directly to the writing. He can only say and do the things that are written for him. And we are forced to believe at the first installment of four that they are written that way for a reason. Can't really dislike a character or the way a character was done until you've seen the whole set of movies. Maybe there's a reason for everything. If not, let's roast him. daegor, Breezus, Moglog and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 We get it, you had "expectations (that) never could have been met" and didn't like the movie. Seriously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Can't really dislike a character or the way a character was done until you've seen the whole set of movies. Maybe there's a reason for everything. If not, let's roast him. Did you think this about jar jar after episode I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl_ben Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Jar Jar is Snoke....we don't know his whole story yet..... Edit: Sorry forgot to say spoilers. daegor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daegor Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Did you think this about jar jar after episode I? (not that this was directed at me, but) Yes. In that I reserved judgement until after I had seen all of the prequels, and then judged that he was a terrible character. However, there is a little bit of apples versus oranges here. From the plot advancement, to the character development, to the dialogue it was so glaringly obvious that the writing was just god awful. I mean, there was some bad acting on top of that, but even if you had thrown an A+ cast at it it still would have been shit due to the writing. I've only watched the new one once so far, but my initial reaction is to say that this has the best writing of the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooks Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Did you think this about jar jar after episode I? I saw all 3 together, so I'm the wrong person to ask. What I'm getting at is the confusion between disliking Kylo Ren and disliking Adam Driver. Do we not like the acting? Or do we not like the character? There is no acting with Jar-Jar besides the voice.. which I found grating and annoying. Pretty legitimate complaint. I disliked Jar Jar's writing because the character was a total miss on the humor the droids afforded in the original trilogy. He seemed to be a caricature of a dumb hick or something that I didn't really enjoy. As for Adam Driver, I had no complaints. I thought he did a fine job with what he was given... a lot of people are dismissing him because of his history on GIRLS or whatever. I've never seen him in anything else before, so I have no prior misgivings. As for Kylo Ren the character, I really wish he had kept his helmet on when talking to Rey, and didn't take it off until he saw Han. But, whatever. Maybe this will make sense if we find out that Kylo is already familiar with Rey, naw'm saying? Then it's not like he was taking his helmet off for some random prisoner, but he was taking it off for someone he knows and has an emotional connection with. That's why I'm willing to wait to see if I like Kylo, the character, until I see the rest of the movies. Additional Edit: It's just a little silly to dislike someone because they threw a temper tantrum when we're working in a story-universe where the entire plot of this movie could have been avoided if someone had thrown a bucket of paint on BB-8. It's all fun and games. I try not to overanalyze what could be or should have been until I've got the whole story. But, I get that it's fun and interesting to talk about it, and we've got a lot of time to wait for the rest of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NapalmBrain Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I've never seen his previous roles, I just didn't like his performance. The conflict he felt with the light seemed fake, his interactions with people were lame, it seemed like they wrote some cool parts for him, I liked the degree of his strength with the force, his lightsaber was cool, I didn't really even have an issue with the mask or the inspiration from Darth Vader, I didn't think any of his dialogue sounded legit, I just wanted to laugh when he was trying to be menacing. The whole Han Solo death scene dialog was awful. I think palpatine, and vader were excellent villi ans. Stoak was too small a role to judge but he at least had potential. This is by far the worst star wars villain , and yes maybe he will develop into a more respectable antagonist in the next 2, but the setup was poor to me. That ground general for the new death star, was kind of meh too. I just think the villains could have been written or utilized better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stranaspank Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 You're bringing me down, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I've never seen his previous roles, I just didn't like his performance. The conflict he felt with the light seemed fake, his interactions with people were lame, it seemed like they wrote some cool parts for him, I liked the degree of his strength with the force, his lightsaber was cool, I didn't really even have an issue with the mask or the inspiration from Darth Vader, I didn't think any of his dialogue sounded legit, I just wanted to laugh when he was trying to be menacing. The whole Han Solo death scene dialog was awful. I think palpatine, and vader were excellent villi ans. Stoak was too small a role to judge but he at least had potential. This is by far the worst star wars villain , and yes maybe he will develop into a more respectable antagonist in the next 2, but the setup was poor to me. That ground general for the new death star, was kind of meh too. I just think the villains could have been written or utilized better You just keep saying what they're saying you're saying about this villain argument. He's not a full fledged villain yet and isn't meant to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooks Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Yes. He is still an apprentice. Maybe these 4 films will be a version of the Anakin -> Vader progressions from episodes 2 through 4. Hopefully a little faster. Maybe after he completes his new training with Snoke he will turn into the silent controlled calculating badass you want him to be. He's still learning. But, again, until Sith are Darth rank really they don't have great control over their emotions. That's sort of the whole point. The Jedi are balanced, calm, controlled. The Sith are unbalanced, emotional, chaotic. It's difficult to show that without having some on-screen irrationality/lash outs. Also - just using Sith as an example because it's what we are familiar with. Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Bateman Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Lol jp from grandmas boy. Thats good. They look similar in body frame etc but eee idk about the face. But I laughed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Bateman Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Have I mentioned how much awesome rey is today? Cause she is ditc586 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breezus Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 You're bringing me down, man. Watching Kylo Ren and Poe Dameron record a novelty song with JT will cheer you up. stl_ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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